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Post by ember on May 28, 2018 6:36:44 GMT
A lightsaber's blade does have mass. Looking at the way they're used and behave in the movies, they obviously have mass. Looking at the ways lightsaber combat and Jedi martial arts were described in the EU, they're obviously thought to have mass. Back in the nineties, force feedback joysticks were a big thing, and some SW games and many joystick demos featured a FF physics model for lightsabers. These always gave the impression of palpable mass and some kind of slight gyro stabilization like effect. It could well be some kind of artificial inertia rather than actual mass - maybe a side effect of the blade's containment field, however that works - but judging by all available source material, lightsaber blades are always portrayed either having mass or working as if they had mass. [/geekout] You can see that the lightsabers center of mass is somewhere inside the blade when Vader throws it and it spins in the air. Surely if it had significant gyroscopic inertia while in motion it would make it difficult, if not impossible, to throw?
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Post by MOK on May 28, 2018 8:06:11 GMT
You can see that the lightsabers center of mass is somewhere inside the blade when Vader throws it and it spins in the air. Surely if it had significant gyroscopic inertia while in motion it would make it difficult, if not impossible, to throw? Only because the gyro effect would tend to stabilize it in flight, like a spinning arrow or bullet.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 28, 2018 8:09:32 GMT
I believe the problem would be the lack of mass/drag. Ooops, leg off. The power of the lightsaber would be truly epic if without mass or drag because you can wield like a dainty little dress/court sword (though maybe the handle is heavier) but near unlimited cutting power and lack of material resistance, and only need for swinging and blocking hard is in duel with other lightsabers. And boy are you right as you would almost need to be a Jedi/Sith to avoid losing your own body parts by mere touch...Yoda: "Control, control, you must use control" (or something like that, as exact knowledge of Star Wars details I have not). Yes, an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age!
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Post by howler on May 28, 2018 8:28:31 GMT
The power of the lightsaber would be truly epic if without mass or drag because you can wield like a dainty little dress/court sword (though maybe the handle is heavier) but near unlimited cutting power and lack of material resistance, and only need for swinging and blocking hard is in duel with other lightsabers. And boy are you right as you would almost need to be a Jedi/Sith to avoid losing your own body parts by mere touch...Yoda: "Control, control, you must use control" (or something like that, as exact knowledge of Star Wars details I have not). Yes, an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age! I'll hoist a (Sir Alec) Guinness to that.
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Post by wlewisiii on May 28, 2018 13:58:00 GMT
May I offer this video as containing some useful thoughts regarding this?
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Post by Cosmoline on May 29, 2018 16:53:16 GMT
Assuming they had the mass of a longsword or rapier, I would expect them to be used as a sword would be. Rapier style would only work if there were a complex hilt or at least a crossguard of saber-proof material.
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Post by MOK on May 29, 2018 18:10:43 GMT
Perhaps more like a jian than a rapier, considering the lack of hand protection.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 29, 2018 18:13:37 GMT
Rapier style would only work if there were a complex hilt or at least a crossguard of saber-proof material. How did you come to conclude that? A rapier or small sword parry is still going to move the attacker's blade off line, and do so with less wasted motion than the techniques which slicing and hacking swords required. Whether a lightsaber blade has mass, or not, it's rather uncontested that no amount of inertia is required to effectively cut/burn with one. In a game of laser-sword tag the first touch is all that matters, and when we sync that up with practical sword techniques the stand-out style looks a lot like small sword (or modern sport fencing). A guard would be nice, but it isn't the reason why a rapier/small sword style of fencing would be dominant (that would be the concise and efficient movements).
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 29, 2018 18:17:49 GMT
Perhaps more like a jian than a rapier, considering the lack of hand protection. While you're flourishing your light-jian with a moulinette, I extend the point of my ray-pier into the path of your (soon to be vaporized) wrist. +10 points to Slytherin
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 29, 2018 19:13:21 GMT
Without mass in the blade (yes!!!) but some in the handle a moulinette perhaps is faster than extending the arm? Why do we see no lunging jedi? (or did we ??)
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Post by Cosmoline on May 29, 2018 20:52:57 GMT
Rapier style would only work if there were a complex hilt or at least a crossguard of saber-proof material. How did you come to conclude that? A rapier or small sword parry is still going to move the attacker's blade off line, and do so with less wasted motion than the techniques which slicing and hacking swords required. Whether a lightsaber blade has mass, or not, it's rather uncontested that no amount of inertia is required to effectively cut/burn with one. In a game of laser-sword tag the first touch is all that matters, and when we sync that up with practical sword techniques the stand-out style looks a lot like small sword (or modern sport fencing). A guard would be nice, but it isn't the reason why a rapier/small sword style of fencing would be dominant (that would be the concise and efficient movements).
Because longpoint-based guards with arming swords and longswords suffer from one huge problem--your wrist and hand is poorly protected. So for example your blade is already out there, and can be beaten aside. This may not give enough time to hit your body, but it does give enough time to take the hand. It's why longpoint-based fencing only reached its zenith when complex hilts came into play. These create substantial zones of deflection to protect hand and wrist. It's also why so much of earlier sword fighting focused on cutting into the attack. And one reason why earlier S&B focused on keeping the buckler right near the hand.
In lightsaber terms, the cutting-attacks have the advantage of keeping the opponent guessing and allowing you to keep your vulnerable bits back until the last minute.
Also don't forget the opponent's blade. While the saber itself may require no effort to cut, it is unlikely to get an unimpeded path to the opponent's flesh. The opponent's blade will be there, and THAT requires all the usual mix of strength, applied weakness and technique to get through.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 29, 2018 21:04:23 GMT
I'd like to see this put to the test. Two combatants with foil blades. Both mounted on guardless hilts, and one wielded like a modern foil fencer and the other like a longsword. Best of five bouts to the touch of an opponent anywhere except the opposing blade. My money is on the foil fencer.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 29, 2018 21:09:16 GMT
Light sabers are no foils! It would be like two longswords with the weight of foils or less. And precognition wielders.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 29, 2018 21:40:42 GMT
That doesn't make any sense. There is no reason one could not use a lightsaber like a foil, and in doing so have a significant advantage over anyone wielding one like a longsword.
Also, Force sensitivity is not a prerequisite for lightsaber use.
Also, Also, not all Force sensitives are precognitive.
Also, Also, Also, splitting your focus on precognition in the middle of a fight is a good way to realize you are about to die just before you do.
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Post by MOK on May 29, 2018 23:57:57 GMT
In a game of laser-sword tag the first touch is all that matters That's the sort of thinking that causes double kills.
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Post by wlewisiii on May 30, 2018 0:15:39 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 30, 2018 5:24:03 GMT
That doesn't make any sense. There is no reason one could not use a lightsaber like a foil, and in doing so have a significant advantage over anyone wielding one like a longsword. Also, Force sensitivity is not a prerequisite for lightsaber use. Also, Also, not all Force sensitives are precognitive. Also, Also, Also, splitting your focus on precognition in the middle of a fight is a good way to realize you are about to die just before you do. I agree with you, I would use it like a foil. But I also want to find a reason why you usually don't see lunging jedi or sith. Perhaps they only don't want to look like bloody aristocrats? The precog I mean is not a sitting down and seeing the future thing but the lightsaber fighting skill trained blindfold.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 30, 2018 10:59:35 GMT
That doesn't make any sense. There is no reason one could not use a lightsaber like a foil, and in doing so have a significant advantage over anyone wielding one like a longsword. Also, Force sensitivity is not a prerequisite for lightsaber use. Also, Also, not all Force sensitives are precognitive. Also, Also, Also, splitting your focus on precognition in the middle of a fight is a good way to realize you are about to die just before you do. I agree with you, I would use it like a foil. But I also want to find a reason why you usually don't see lunging jedi or sith. Perhaps they only don't want to look like bloody aristocrats? The precog I mean is not a sitting down and seeing the future thing but the lightsaber fighting skill trained blindfold. OK. I follow. To your last point, I would call that Remote Viewing/Sensing or Clairvoyance/Clairsentience. Precognition implies prescience, and the Jedi/Sith are terrible about comprehending glimpses of the future.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 30, 2018 11:06:11 GMT
Oh yeah!
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Post by lgarretto on Jun 1, 2018 6:12:57 GMT
I may add a little info from the Star Wars universe that I don’t believe has been mentioned. A lightsaber does have mass as in several of the books there is a decent amount of evidence to suggest that the blade is not a laser but a magnetic “tube” filled with plasma. Which has mass somewhat similar to water. Maybe thick honey. I am not for sure on that. That’s just a guess on the mass. Having said this in the Star Wars universe the original lightsabers were connected at the end of the hilt to a battery box kept on the hip or back due to the need for so much energy. Later on they were powered directly with the force. No batteries. And it is also specifically mentioned that crystals are used to focus a lightsabers energy. However it isn’t specifically a laser. The Jedi/sith would use the force to control the length of the blade. As for real world applications, there has been a lightsaber made that behaves exactly like in Star Wars. (To my knowledge this is a true story but I haven’t seen it in person). The blade is only a couple inches long and the “hilt” takes up an entire room, but it does work. I will try and find the video. It works by projecting a magnetic field and filling it with plasma. It was some sort of science journal project I think. As for the real world uses, in the Star Wars universe there are actually a number of relatively common materials that a lightsaber can’t or can barely cut. As well as vibro-blades. Which are normal swords that vibrate at a specific frequency to not be cut by a lightsaber and be able to clash with one. That would make a need for more force in some instances I think. Also lightsabers don’t necessarily destroy everything they touch immediately. They have to melt it. Not to say a human body would take much, but it would take some force to be able to go through body parts. In the clone wars it takes obo-wan quite a while to cut a hole in a blast door. Granted that’s metal not a person. But my personal opinion is that lightsabers would have to be used with some typical steel sword methods and, while it wouldn’t take as much force as a steel sword, I believe it would still take some force to be able to significantly wound an opponent. So, depending on the length and style of the saber I think a lightsaber would need to be used at least similarly to a corresponding metal weapon. With force. But I am just a nerdy Star Wars fan. What do I know haha
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