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Post by admin on May 27, 2018 7:15:33 GMT
Just a bit of a thought experiment - based on playing around with some combat ready lightsabers again recently (I don't mean they have actual lighsaber blades of course, just tough as steel modern plastics)..
The handling of one of these waster/bokken like swords with the tube versus just the handle is quite different - but when you consider that an actual lightsabers blade has no mass, then it becomes apparent that basically all you are actually physically wielding is the handle..
As such, with no real mass to speak off, and no need to generate any kind of momentum (as a mere touch will destroy any tissue it contacts instantly) I suspect that the techniques used in the Star Wars film are nowhere near realistic.
Out of all the fights, the one with Ben vs Vader is probably closest to how they might be used..
There would be no need for winding up, speed and accuracy would be all that matters. So I would think that an actual bout would be much faster, with extremely subtle movements and angling - more akin to fencing than kendo..
What are your thoughts?
Do you think it would be better to use them one handed, or perhaps, one in EACH hand. After all, all is needed is the slightest touch and its is pretty much game over from there..
As two lightsabers do defect and counter each other like a physical blade, would using powerful attacks like Luke does when he faces Vader actually work? Or would he just open himself up to a devastating counter attack?
Personally I am inclined to think that the techniques would be extremely short, fast and deceptive, designed simply to touch an opponent somewhere on their body first before delivering a follow up coup de grace (but, like historical sword fighting, may not be all that interesting for moviegoers). I imagine after the first contact, the fight would resemble wing chun sticking hands more than MMA..
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on May 27, 2018 7:27:17 GMT
Personal opinion: since light-sabers have relatively short handles, they'd probably be more akin to a Jian or a Rapier in usage and techniques. They are very agile blades, practically weightless and with the potential to deliver a deadly blow with every strike, much unlike a Jian or Rapier. As such, dual wielding might work for lightsabers where it is impractical in an actual weapon.
Their deadliness is what sets them apart from Jians and Rapiers. We have not seen any form of defence (armor) capable of withstanding a direct lightsaber blow in the Star Wars universe. If lightsabers were to evolve the same way swords do, perhaps a logical development would be to create longer blades a-la Naginata or Yari spears with longer handles. OR longer blades with short-ish handles ala Nodachi. After all, a single touch is all it takes to disable your opponent.
There would also be no reason for Jedi nor Sith to wear any kind of cumbersome armor whatsoever since both sides have lightsabers. Agility is key. Not getting hit and surviving is the goal of any lightsaber duel.
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Post by ember on May 27, 2018 7:29:26 GMT
No weight in the blade, that's a point i've never given much thought to, surely it would be much harder to deliver a blow with any force behind it. Use of the force gives the Jedi ability to see slightly into the future and anticipate what will happen next, I'm not sure if that would effect the technique chosen by the swordsman or not but in my mind movements are more likely to be short and fast. You may need a bigger swing to actually hit your opponents blade with any impact force.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on May 27, 2018 7:34:09 GMT
No weight in the blade, that's a point i've never given much thought to, surely it would be much harder to deliver a blow with any force behind it. Use of the force gives the Jedi ability to see slightly into the future and anticipate what will happen next, I'm not sure if that would effect the technique chosen by the swordsman or not but in my mind movements are more likely to be short and fast. You may need a bigger swing to actually hit your opponents blade with any impact force. In a hectic duel, seeing into the future isn't as practical as you might think for one important reason: Reaction time. If one duellist peers into the future mid-duel, it could be distracting enough for the opponent to slid his blade into your weakened defense. In addition, countless factors and events intertwine in a duel, and if even a single one of those factors and events are altered, so will your vision of the future. You won't have the time to examine every single outcome of every single one of your or your opponent's actions. Much less any external factors that might interfere with the duel. Instead I recommend using force powers such as force push/lighting whenever the opportunity arrives to harry and put pressure on your opponent.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 27, 2018 7:42:28 GMT
I think speed, speed, speed. Even enough to deflect plasma bolts. So for me the prequel fights were most plausible and the lava duel the best. Then the inertia awoke!
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Post by ember on May 27, 2018 7:54:32 GMT
I was always under the impresion that the 'seeing into the future' skill came naturally to a Jedi and only worked a half a second ahead, and that it was this skill that makes deflecting plasma bolts possible. Almost a power of anticipation that allows a Jedi's reaction time to appear almost instant? My interpretation anyway.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on May 27, 2018 7:59:56 GMT
Jedi Precognition has always been ambiguous even in the universe. We don't know whether the user will have control over their visions or not. This is why Precognition could be very problematic. Regardless, deflecting blasters might be several orders of magnitude easier to manage with Jedi Precognition than a hectic duel with countless factors where Precognition might turn out to be detrimental.
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Post by Croccifixio on May 27, 2018 14:10:20 GMT
Throw it.
Though seriously, the most practical style for me seemed to be Dooku’s pistol gripped saber used mostly for thrusting. You don’t endanger your limbs and even deflected, just a tangential hit does a lot of damage.
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Post by leviathansteak on May 27, 2018 14:31:59 GMT
Those gigantic sweeping hews wouldnt make any sense since just doing a little wimpy flick would take a head clean off.
Id be inclined to use it almost like a smallsword. Mainly going for small thrusts and relatively moderate cutting flicks at the other guy's hands.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 27, 2018 16:42:48 GMT
Psychokinesis seems to be pretty universal for Force wielders. I always thought that a duel between Force users should be happening simultaneously on two fronts. There is the lightsaber sword fight playing out like a small sword duel, and there is a psychokinetic wrestling/judo match where they vie for control (while environmental stress fractures, wildly flunk detritus, and dusty air gusts hint at the invisible power struggle). I've always felt that the psychokinesis has been utilized poorly and in unsophisticated ways in the films. Force wielding orders like the Jedi and Sith should logically have developed a wide variety of applications for their PK powers, but all we see are a few shoves, chokes, and lightsaber manipulations. Where is the psychokinetic kung fu and jusitsu?
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Post by MOK on May 27, 2018 17:53:28 GMT
A lightsaber's blade does have mass.
Looking at the way they're used and behave in the movies, they obviously have mass.
Looking at the ways lightsaber combat and Jedi martial arts were described in the EU, they're obviously thought to have mass.
Back in the nineties, force feedback joysticks were a big thing, and some SW games and many joystick demos featured a FF physics model for lightsabers. These always gave the impression of palpable mass and some kind of slight gyro stabilization like effect.
It could well be some kind of artificial inertia rather than actual mass - maybe a side effect of the blade's containment field, however that works - but judging by all available source material, lightsaber blades are always portrayed either having mass or working as if they had mass.
[/geekout]
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Post by MOK on May 27, 2018 17:57:05 GMT
No joke! Vader actually does that. It's also a standard Force power in most SW games.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 17:57:29 GMT
Vader was throwing garbage at Luke in Empire.
The escalation of going from Yoda lifting the X Wing being a *big deal* to the shenanigans making that look like amateur hour didn't help. Lack of restraint in various media forms really did the over all story no favors. What they shouldn't have done is trivialize the use of a magical power. Now people can fly unconsciously even though an evil wizard was defeated by being thrown in a well. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.
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Post by howler on May 27, 2018 19:51:06 GMT
A lightsaber's blade does have mass. Looking at the way they're used and behave in the movies, they obviously have mass. Looking at the ways lightsaber combat and Jedi martial arts were described in the EU, they're obviously thought to have mass. Back in the nineties, force feedback joysticks were a big thing, and some SW games and many joystick demos featured a FF physics model for lightsabers. These always gave the impression of palpable mass and some kind of slight gyro stabilization like effect. It could well be some kind of artificial inertia rather than actual mass - maybe a side effect of the blade's containment field, however that works - but judging by all available source material, lightsaber blades are always portrayed either having mass or working as if they had mass. [/geekout] I was going to say much of this as well. Though it is indeed called LIGHTsaber, this does not necessarily mean the blade simply has the mass qualities of light, particularly when the blade acts FAR different than mere light itself. Has there been any information on the description of mass for these blades?
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Post by howler on May 27, 2018 19:56:11 GMT
Psychokinesis seems to be pretty universal for Force wielders. I always thought that a duel between Force users should be happening simultaneously on two fronts. There is the lightsaber sword fight playing out like a small sword duel, and there is a psychokinetic wrestling/judo match where they vie for control (while environmental stress fractures, wildly flunk detritus, and dusty air gusts hint at the invisible power struggle). I've always felt that the psychokinesis has been utilized poorly and in unsophisticated ways in the films. Force wielding orders like the Jedi and Sith should logically have developed a wide variety of applications for their PK powers, but all we see are a few shoves, chokes, and lightsaber manipulations. Where is the psychokinetic kung fu and jusitsu? This (psychokinesis) is (and should be more) a big part of force power projection. I'm thinking it has evolved more with improved special effects. They should have utilized it even more, and I'd like to see people with the power of gods (bring back Luke) in the last movie.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 27, 2018 20:03:31 GMT
I don't think the mass changes when switching it on and off, so the blade can't have much mass. Perhaps drag. In a fast lightsaber duel you'd have to focus on this and no time for wizarding, only in dramatic breaks.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on May 27, 2018 20:36:06 GMT
I remember reading that Lucas intended the lightsabers to have significant gyroscopic inertia, making it difficult to change their direction. Using one required two hands and concentrated effort. Like a floor buffer, I guess.
Making lightsaber combat so much more agile in the prequels was supposed to highlight how powerful Jedi were back in the day, but instead made the lightsabers look weightless and made kids wonder what was wrong with Luke.
They also don't need much inertia to cut, but would need it to bind and beat.
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Post by howler on May 27, 2018 21:02:11 GMT
I don't think the mass changes when switching it on and off, so the blade can't have much mass. Perhaps drag. In a fast lightsaber duel you'd have to focus on this and no time for wizarding, only in dramatic breaks. That is interesting, no real weight but drag while in motion due to nature of energy beam. I wonder how/if any non Jedi/Sith wielded a lightsaber, and would this be partly due to difficulty in control of drag.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 27, 2018 21:09:37 GMT
I believe the problem would be the lack of mass/drag. Ooops, leg off.
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Post by howler on May 27, 2018 22:57:48 GMT
I believe the problem would be the lack of mass/drag. Ooops, leg off. The power of the lightsaber would be truly epic if without mass or drag because you can wield like a dainty little dress/court sword (though maybe the handle is heavier) but near unlimited cutting power and lack of material resistance, and only need for swinging and blocking hard is in duel with other lightsabers. And boy are you right as you would almost need to be a Jedi/Sith to avoid losing your own body parts by mere touch...Yoda: "Control, control, you must use control" (or something like that, as exact knowledge of Star Wars details I have not).
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