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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 20, 2018 18:03:28 GMT
The point I was making is that without a full appreciation or at least as close to one as possible would make it difficult to comment with any accuracy on the OP's question.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 20, 2018 18:11:12 GMT
Its also not advisable to roll either your wrist or the sword in your grip to present a different surface to the attacking blade. A straight wrist is stonger than a bent one and there isnt any need to compromise the structure of the wrist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 19:49:20 GMT
Right, so you rotate the sword in the hand so the interaction occurs with a straight wrist and not a rolled one thus no compromise of structure, which is what I was getting at with Djinnobi.
You don't need a full understanding or appreciation of a martial system to grasp this, you can see how this works by pushing a sword against a wall or a post.
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Post by ealdoss on Feb 22, 2018 2:42:51 GMT
From my knowledge and experience (two years practicing Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), there is indeed edge to edge blocking in Japanese swordsmanship.
I too asked the same question to my sensei years ago, in fact. He told me (as I recall): "It's true that there are times when it's preferable not to block with the edge, in order to keep it from damage. But in life or death, we have to put ourselves beyond this worry. If we need to block with the edge to stay alive, we do it. In Koryu, there is rarely a right or wrong, only different."
That last sentence especially is something that a lot of people need to understand in regard to Japanese swordsmanship. I've seen comments on YouTube of a lot of people saying things like "This guy doesn't know anything, look, he's dipping the kissaki below horizontal when he does an overhead cut." Or "he's drawing the sword wrong, the angle should be--..."
I've practiced with quite a number of different people and teachers from different schools, and I've yet to find anyone do everything the same. Even within the same Ryu.
The only thing that IS the same is Seitei iaido; but that's because it's Seitei and not Koryu. I don't practice it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 3:43:07 GMT
A lot of that is because people can't tell the difference between an actual mistake and a difference in execution. Whether you end your cut here or there is a distinction that really only matters to your group. From the outside, it isn't so easy to know if he put the kissaki there because he over-committed a flawed cut, or because he is baiting his enemy to think exactly that. It's the classic Alexander Pope "A little learning is a dangerous thing".
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Post by ealdoss on Feb 22, 2018 6:56:48 GMT
A lot of that is because people can't tell the difference between an actual mistake and a difference in execution. Whether you end your cut here or there is a distinction that really only matters to your group. From the outside, it isn't so easy to know if he put the kissaki there because he over-committed a flawed cut, or because he is baiting his enemy to think exactly that. It's the classic Alexander Pope "A little learning is a dangerous thing". That's very true. A lot of these subtle differences are due to differences in theory of swordsmanship (which way is the most effective way to do a technique etc). And a lot of the times, none are wrong, it's just that some have advantages and disadvantages. Some are just "the way it is in this Ryu". That's one thing I love about Koryu 😊 so many ideas and theories and applications, so much to learn beyond the physical.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 22, 2018 17:49:04 GMT
Does the tsuba make a difference here? I'm thinking about the difference between it and a crossguard. If you use the infamous "flat of your strong" in longsword, you tend to lose fingers. There's nothing blocking that path until late period. But angled edge-to-edge binds will slip to the crossguard, which is often what happens in treadthroughs and windings If instead you have a round disk, a slipping sword will be stopped regardless of the site of deflection.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 20:28:36 GMT
I am not inclined to think so, but I'm not saying no. I want to say my HEMA time was roughly something like 1.5 to 1.75 years and blocking / parrying / receiving on the cross was not taught or emphasized. Blade interactions were much further out. In JSA blade on blade interractions likewise typically happen up the blade from the tsuba / habaki area, although I did see an intimidating technique that involved the "defender" using tanto to stab into the "attacker's" katana cut, essentially catching the blade on the seppa / rim of the fuchi. Tight tolerance and done in real time. Slight miss would cost fingers or worse.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 22, 2018 20:36:52 GMT
Right, so you rotate the sword in the hand so the interaction occurs with a straight wrist and not a rolled one thus no compromise of structure, which is what I was getting at with Djinnobi. You don't need a full understanding or appreciation of a martial system to grasp this, you can see how this works by pushing a sword against a wall or a post. Rotating the sword so you compromise your grip while having a straight wrist is still a compromise of the structure. And using your example of pushing a sword against a wall is far too static of an example concerning techniques and their application. I would urge you to take up some training in kenjutsu, I think it would really help your perspective. Try adding timing, pressure and blade contact and trying to roll a tsuka in your grip and see what happens. Maintaining a proper grip is as important as any other element of swordsmanship.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 22, 2018 20:40:45 GMT
From my knowledge and experience (two years practicing Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), there is indeed edge to edge blocking in Japanese swordsmanship. Nice, that is where I got my start. Though I fell under the CKF and had to do Seitei Iai before I got into the koryu kata. That last sentence especially is something that a lot of people need to understand in regard to Japanese swordsmanship. I've seen comments on YouTube of a lot of people saying things like "This guy doesn't know anything, look, he's dipping the kissaki below horizontal when he does an overhead cut." Or "he's drawing the sword wrong, the angle should be--..." Sounds like iaidoka making comments like that, where the emphasis is on such types of things. There is still a degree of correctness in the execution of technique, but many modern budo replace aesthetics for martial values. That became one of the reasons I stopped training in Iai. I've practiced with quite a number of different people and teachers from different schools, and I've yet to find anyone do everything the same. Even within the same Ryu. Same, but I've also seen people within a Ryu that have poor technique as well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 22:17:30 GMT
Right, so you rotate the sword in the hand so the interaction occurs with a straight wrist and not a rolled one thus no compromise of structure, which is what I was getting at with Djinnobi. You don't need a full understanding or appreciation of a martial system to grasp this, you can see how this works by pushing a sword against a wall or a post. Rotating the sword so you compromise your grip while having a straight wrist is still a compromise of the structure. And using your example of pushing a sword against a wall is far too static of an example concerning techniques and their application. I would urge you to take up some training in kenjutsu, I think it would really help your perspective. Try adding timing, pressure and blade contact and trying to roll a tsuka in your grip and see what happens. Maintaining a proper grip is as important as any other element of swordsmanship. ROFL thank you for the insult. I hope your swordsmanship is more subtle. I was only discussing structure not technique. I would hope that was self evident and you were just looking for an argument. Not particularly interested. However since you bring it up I am surprised that you don't know how to manipulate a tsuka while in contact under pressure. Im assuming that either sensei hasn't gotten around to explicitly spelling it out for you or you haven't extrapolated from what you've already learned as I cannot fathom a fleshed out kenjutsu that doesn't address this kind of a mechanic somewhere in its curriculum. I hope you get there someday. Here is a hint - alignment of the tsuka with the radius and ulna. Maybe you can sort out how to utilize that in the context of your tradition. Maybe not. Whatever gambatte.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 22, 2018 22:58:15 GMT
I am sorry you took it that way. Expanding one's knowledge of anything is never an insult. But you also need to be aware of your limitations. As a point of fact, you said this on page one: This gets tossed out all the time. Hold your sword. Rotate it 90 degrees in your hand. What's wrong with the body mechanics using the flat? Rotate the sword another 90 degrees in your hand. What's wrong with the body mechanics using the mune? That isn't structure...that's technique. I then mentioned a technique called Uke Nagashi which has two distinct ways to do it...one with a slight bend in the wrist to accept a downward cut on the shinogi-ji as done in Seitei Iai, and the koryu version which is edge on edge. Of the two, I believe a bent wrist is a weaker structure. You wouldn't punch someone/thing with a bent wrist for obvious reasons. It's weaker. I'm not really seeing how sparring factors one way or another, a good mechanic is a good mechanic whether you're working by yourself or with / against another person. Whether it's the right thing to do at a given time I'll fully agree that is contextual, but the mechanic itself shouldn't be. But this is veering well off topic and I imagine whenever you get around to giving it a shot you'll see what I'm getting at. This tells me you haven't done it, and I wonder how extensive your WMA training was? I ask because doing any kind of partner work changes entire dynamics of grip, body leverage, angle of attack etc. etc. A technique when practiced on it's own gives little insight into it's effectiveness and often requires a greater degree of study beyond solo kata to really understand it. Partner work, sparring etc. etc. is one way to accomplish this. However since you bring it up I am surprised that you don't know how to manipulate a tsuka while in contact under pressure. Im assuming that either sensei hasn't gotten around to explicitly spelling it out for you or you haven't extrapolated from what you've already learned as I cannot fathom a fleshed out kenjutsu that doesn't address this kind of a mechanic somewhere in its curriculum. I hope you get there someday. Why are you surprised? It may simply not exist in my curriculum. It may also be a poor technique that is part of your ryu. There are multiple explanations that are all equally plausible. I can confidently tell you there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for frivolous movement or body mechanics in my ryu. But not all ryu have maintained their martial roots. I will be sure to let you know if I ever use my tsuka like a cork screw. May be handy if I am attacked by a wine bottle ;) I already know exactly how to hold my sword lol. Or my bo, or naginata. The structure is solid, and doesn't compromise itself. I suppose my point in all of this is to be leery about making commentary on blocking while rotating the tsuka in your grip, either before a "block" or during. By the sounds of it, solo kata has been the extent of your training which is not enough of a qualifier to determine whether or not a technique is sound. At least in other forms of JSA the training methods vary, which provide greater insight into effectiveness of a given technique.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 23:49:59 GMT
I am sorry you took it that way. Expanding one's knowledge of anything is never an insult. But you also need to be aware of your limitations. As a point of fact, you said this on page one: This gets tossed out all the time. Hold your sword. Rotate it 90 degrees in your hand. What's wrong with the body mechanics using the flat? Rotate the sword another 90 degrees in your hand. What's wrong with the body mechanics using the mune? That isn't structure...that's technique. I then mentioned a technique called Uke Nagashi which has two distinct ways to do it...one with a slight bend in the wrist to accept a downward cut on the shinogi-ji as done in Seitei Iai, and the koryu version which is edge on edge. Of the two, I believe a bent wrist is a weaker structure. You wouldn't punch someone/thing with a bent wrist for obvious reasons. It's weaker. I'm not really seeing how sparring factors one way or another, a good mechanic is a good mechanic whether you're working by yourself or with / against another person. Whether it's the right thing to do at a given time I'll fully agree that is contextual, but the mechanic itself shouldn't be. But this is veering well off topic and I imagine whenever you get around to giving it a shot you'll see what I'm getting at. This tells me you haven't done it, and I wonder how extensive your WMA training was? I ask because doing any kind of partner work changes entire dynamics of grip, body leverage, angle of attack etc. etc. A technique when practiced on it's own gives little insight into it's effectiveness and often requires a greater degree of study beyond solo kata to really understand it. Partner work, sparring etc. etc. is one way to accomplish this. However since you bring it up I am surprised that you don't know how to manipulate a tsuka while in contact under pressure. Im assuming that either sensei hasn't gotten around to explicitly spelling it out for you or you haven't extrapolated from what you've already learned as I cannot fathom a fleshed out kenjutsu that doesn't address this kind of a mechanic somewhere in its curriculum. I hope you get there someday. Why are you surprised? It may simply not exist in my curriculum. It may also be a poor technique that is part of your ryu. There are multiple explanations that are all equally plausible. I can confidently tell you there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for frivolous movement or body mechanics in my ryu. But not all ryu have maintained their martial roots. I will be sure to let you know if I ever use my tsuka like a cork screw. May be handy if I am attacked by a wine bottle ;) I already know exactly how to hold my sword lol. Or my bo, or naginata. The structure is solid, and doesn't compromise itself. I suppose my point in all of this is to be leery about making commentary on blocking while rotating the tsuka in your grip, either before a "block" or during. By the sounds of it, solo kata has been the extent of your training which is not enough of a qualifier to determine whether or not a technique is sound. At least in other forms of JSA the training methods vary, which provide greater insight into effectiveness of a given technique. I have no desire to take this thread to 20+ pages of snip quotes. If you are interested in either my capabilities or limitations then we can always meet up and sort it out. I don't discuss specifics of my JSA for a few reasons, one of which being I don't hold a menkyo and I assume you can understand that imparts some restrictions on conversation. The Western practice doesn't have the same considerations, my training was not very long, certainly less than 2 full years but I wasn't keeping specific records of my time at the Higgins Armory in Worcester MA. I did not advocating receiving or delivering an attack with a bent risk so you are straw-manning here. I can clarify with photographs if it would be helpful. I've delivered and blocked attacks with live blade and paid the togishi for the repairs. I'll thank you to refrain from further commentary on what you assume about my background. If you want to discus the topics in the thread earnestly I may be interested in further dialog, otherwise I am good with ending our conversation at this point.
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Post by ealdoss on Feb 23, 2018 0:53:50 GMT
From my knowledge and experience (two years practicing Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), there is indeed edge to edge blocking in Japanese swordsmanship. Nice, that is where I got my start. Though I fell under the CKF and had to do Seitei Iai before I got into the koryu kata. That last sentence especially is something that a lot of people need to understand in regard to Japanese swordsmanship. I've seen comments on YouTube of a lot of people saying things like "This guy doesn't know anything, look, he's dipping the kissaki below horizontal when he does an overhead cut." Or "he's drawing the sword wrong, the angle should be--..." Sounds like iaidoka making comments like that, where the emphasis is on such types of things. There is still a degree of correctness in the execution of technique, but many modern budo replace aesthetics for martial values. That became one of the reasons I stopped training in Iai. I've practiced with quite a number of different people and teachers from different schools, and I've yet to find anyone do everything the same. Even within the same Ryu. Same, but I've also seen people within a Ryu that have poor technique as well. Oh most definitely, there is correct and incorrect execution of technique. It isn't "Oh this is my way of doing it~" in these techniques. I'm not referring to the correct way to block, or the correct way to cut; with these things, there is a degree of right and wrong. What I am referring to however is like... Where the kissaki should stop at the end of Nukitsuke, in front of you or slightly to the right? or.. When doing O-Chiburi, what path should the blade take when moving it just prior to the "swing and stop"? These are things that are done differently in different schools even within the same Ryuha, with none being more or less correct than the other; they simply represent different styles and techniques from different sensei and possibly even different eras. Poor technique is poor, and it must be improved to make progress. There is no disagreement to this. Anyways, I'm just rambling now
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 23, 2018 0:54:35 GMT
I am not inclined to think so, but I'm not saying no. I want to say my HEMA time was roughly something like 1.5 to 1.75 years and blocking / parrying / receiving on the cross was not taught or emphasized. Blade interactions were much further out. In JSA blade on blade interractions likewise typically happen up the blade from the tsuba / habaki area, although I did see an intimidating technique that involved the "defender" using tanto to stab into the "attacker's" katana cut, essentially catching the blade on the seppa / rim of the fuchi. Tight tolerance and done in real time. Slight miss would cost fingers or worse. I don't want to derail into HEMA, so let me ask it this way--if you use the flat of a katana to displace, but the attacker's blade slips down towards your hands, will the tsuba reliably protect the hand and wrist? Or is it just there to keep your own hand from sliding onto the blade?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 1:21:08 GMT
Hi Cosmoline,
It the edge of one blade slides down the length of the side of another, the edge will likely catch on or cut into the much softer metal of the the habaki, it would have to skip off or break contact in order to get onto the tsuba. That lip or rim of the habaki is laughably small, but its enough to catch but so much depends on what is actually in contact, where the pressure and direction is going, etc. If the side of one blade and the side of another slides against each other then the edge would find the seppa or the tsuba depending on angle.
The "slide" can also be arrested depending on again the angles and the pressure, and that's not unique to katana - longsword or arming sword contact doesn't always slide all the way down to the cross, one should be able to create a bind at any point of contact.
Tsuba are pretty strong. I had a bunch produced for me from a bronze foundry and for giggles I wanted to see what they could take with a vice and a hammer and the ones I had at least were surprisingly resilient. They are small, no two ways about it, but even only withdrawing the blade enough to try going around that little distance creates enough of an oppening to be counter attacked once the kenjutsuka is aware of the separation thanks to his own fuhlen. ;-)
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Post by ealdoss on Feb 23, 2018 1:21:11 GMT
I am not inclined to think so, but I'm not saying no. I want to say my HEMA time was roughly something like 1.5 to 1.75 years and blocking / parrying / receiving on the cross was not taught or emphasized. Blade interactions were much further out. In JSA blade on blade interractions likewise typically happen up the blade from the tsuba / habaki area, although I did see an intimidating technique that involved the "defender" using tanto to stab into the "attacker's" katana cut, essentially catching the blade on the seppa / rim of the fuchi. Tight tolerance and done in real time. Slight miss would cost fingers or worse. I don't want to derail into HEMA, so let me ask it this way--if you use the flat of a katana to displace, but the attacker's blade slips down towards your hands, will the tsuba reliably protect the hand and wrist? Or is it just there to keep your own hand from sliding onto the blade? In short, the answer is yes, it will protect it. But just for information's sake, in many techniques that have blocking/parrying in JSA, it's in my experience that when that technique is applied in battle, the best/most effective way to do it is to do it in a way that you don't rely on the blocking/parrying aspect of it, but instead just get out of the way of your enemy's blade. An example is Ukenagashi. In Ukenagashi, we block the opponents overhead cut by raising our blade over our heads horizontally (slightly pointing to the ground, so that the enemy's blade will slide down away from us/our tsuba) then turn away from the opponent, then strike. This is the technique, but in a real application, a skilled swordsman in JSA will still raise the sword with the intention to block, but they will put a large effort to turn away and dodge the blade, then cut down the opponent - all without even making contact with the enemy's blade. Sorry if my explanation is not clear, it's easier shown than written.
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Post by ealdoss on Feb 23, 2018 1:23:28 GMT
Hi Cosmoline, It the edge of one blade slides down the length of the side of another, the edge will likely catch on or cut into the much softer metal of the the habaki, it would have to skip off or break contact in order to get onto the tsuba. That lip or rim of the habaki is laughably small, but its enough to catch but so much depends on what is actually in contact, where the pressure and direction is going, etc. If the side of one blade and the side of another slides against each other then the edge would find the seppa or the tsuba depending on angle. The "slide" can also be arrested depending on again the angles and the pressure, and that's not unique to katana - longsword or arming sword contact doesn't always slide all the way down to the cross, one should be able to create a bind at any point of contact. Tsuba are pretty strong. I had a bunch produced for me from a bronze foundry and for giggles I wanted to see what they could take with a vice and a hammer and the ones I had at least were surprisingly resilient. They are small, no two ways about it, but even only withdrawing the blade enough to try going around that little distance creates enough of an oppening to be counter attacked once the kenjutsuka is aware of the separation thanks to his own fuhlen. ;-) That's very true! 😊 I've actually seen an antique nihonto with a cut made into the top of the habaki due to this exact reason.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 3:05:20 GMT
I have no desire to take this thread to 20+ pages of snip quotes. If you are interested in either my capabilities or limitations then we can always meet up and sort it out. I don't discuss specifics of my JSA for a few reasons, one of which being I don't hold a menkyo and I assume you can understand that imparts some restrictions on conversation. The Western practice doesn't have the same considerations, my training was not very long, certainly less than 2 full years but I wasn't keeping specific records of my time at the Higgins Armory in Worcester MA. I did not advocating receiving or delivering an attack with a bent risk so you are straw-manning here. I can clarify with photographs if it would be helpful. I've delivered and blocked attacks with live blade and paid the togishi for the repairs. I'll thank you to refrain from further commentary on what you assume about my background. If you want to discus the topics in the thread earnestly I may be interested in further dialog, otherwise I am good with ending our conversation at this point. I already have a pretty good idea of your capabilities and limitations based on previous threads. No need to fight, I already know what they are! I would love to see photos of the tsuka turning while in your grip, or a video. As for the wrist thing, I didn't say that was your premise. I made mention of it, then you went on about your tsuka-grip turning. I have an issue with that, but I will respect the privacy of your ryu if you don't want to elaborate. We hold swords in a different light today than our predecessors. It may have been easier for them to have a sword repaired. There are numerous examples, like I mentioned, of old katana with edge damage below the monouchi. That is the only part that needs to stay sharp. Otherwise expect it to get damaged in a fight.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 3:33:31 GMT
Unless you're one of my sempai posting under an alias in a weird and elaborate ruse, you know absolutely nothing about me or really anyone else on this or any other forum. Again if you want to change that, there's one way to do it and it isn't being smug hiding behind the keyboard and mouse daisho. No skin off my back. Live out the rest of your life without knowing how to rotate a tsuka while maintaining integrity against pressure or caring to. I got mine, so feel free to agree disagree or chortle.
Best of luck in your future endeavors.
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