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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 23, 2018 21:04:04 GMT
There's a lot of debate/speculation about why the crossguards became more prominent and common in the 11th century and after. The shift from small handled/stumpy crossguard to long handled/long crossguard suggests a dramatic change in technique. Possibly linked to shield improvements, but I don't know.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 23, 2018 21:06:50 GMT
Uhhh... this thread got weird and dark. But, uh, uhm, wait, wrist rotation, that's right. MLanteigne , the idea of parrying or blocking with the edge or without the edge is illogical either way, all that fundamentally matters is a block or parry, on this we agree. Rotating the wrist a minimal amount doesn't alter the strength of the wrist's posture much. I'm talking about that slight dip where the edge is aligned at an angle so that the opponent's edge meets the flat right by the edge. Not nearly to the same extent as what Jon posted, as that could very well weaken up your posture based on the opponent's angle of attack in most cases, I'm talking about a very minimal shift. From my experience this assists with the block or parry as it's easier to slide your blade around and disengage for a counter rather than what happens when the two edges meet and potentially grind into each other. The latter often is trickier to disengage, but if you're trying to bind into the opponent by having your blades grind into each other it's viable. The munouchi isn't the only viable cutting area though, the lower part of the blade is still really handy in a pinch at close quarters (although not nearly as much as the top third). You're right that an obsession with protecting the edge is irrational (and anything but appropriate contextually), but abandoning the edge is also disadvantageous. And I don't really pracitice iai at all, mostly just a heavily bastardized niten-ryu (i.e. two katana, minimal wakizashi) I spend lots of time getting creative with. Perhaps the reason I have these views on parries and blocks is because I almost always train with two blades. In that sort of practice as one sword connects another is about to connect, so most of the time I'm not very concerned with transitioning from block or parry to an attack with the same sword. Which is an interesting idea to think about, since that is fundamentally different than when using a single sword with two hands. Since you practice Katori shinto-ryu (a solid school from my limited knowledge of it and one I would definitely check out given the chance), could you expand on how you go about the block/parry and counter? If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about how you're taught hand positioning, engagement and disengagement of the opponent's blade. I'm always interested in adding new ideas to the mix.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 23, 2018 21:17:00 GMT
The crossguard development on western swords is an interesting topic as well, and one I can't really say much about. I can only speculate that there may be some correlation with a rise in two-handed swords to counteract polearms and the like, but even that doesn't seem entirely right. Sure, it could help ease the loss of the bucker, but there seems to be something else at play.
The super complex guards seen on stuff like small-swords and rapier seemed to partially evolve to take the place of gauntlets and assist with defense, but maybe there's some trapping logic there as well. Now I have yet another topic to research, thankfully winter is highly conducive towards reading.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 22:27:09 GMT
MLanteigne , the idea of parrying or blocking with the edge or without the edge is illogical either way, all that fundamentally matters is a block or parry, on this we agree. Rotating the wrist a minimal amount doesn't alter the strength of the wrist's posture much. I'm talking about that slight dip where the edge is aligned at an angle so that the opponent's edge meets the flat right by the edge. Not nearly to the same extent as what Jon posted, as that could very well weaken up your posture based on the opponent's angle of attack in most cases, I'm talking about a very minimal shift. Hey Z, Ok, I'll go for a minor amount of wrist angle won't compromise the strength. In fact, I probably do certain things wrong enough that I am compromising myself! From my experience this assists with the block or parry as it's easier to slide your blade around and disengage for a counter rather than what happens when the two edges meet and potentially grind into each other. The latter often is trickier to disengage, but if you're trying to bind into the opponent by having your blades grind into each other it's viable. The munouchi isn't the only viable cutting area though, the lower part of the blade is still really handy in a pinch at close quarters (although not nearly as much as the top third). You're right that an obsession with protecting the edge is irrational (and anything but appropriate contextually), but abandoning the edge is also disadvantageous. I agree with just about everything you are saying, I think in a "fight" anything could and did happen. A glancing block which uses the momentum of your opponent's sword to fuel your own counter cut is great vs trying to stop theirs altogether. I wonder too if an edge cutting into the softer mune or shinogi-ji would still take some damage like a roll. I think either way your sword is going to take some form of damage in combat. And I don't really pracitice iai at all, mostly just a heavily bastardized niten-ryu (i.e. two katana, minimal wakizashi) I spend lots of time getting creative with. Perhaps the reason I have these views on parries and blocks is because I almost always train with two blades. In that sort of practice as one sword connects another is about to connect, so most of the time I'm not very concerned with transitioning from block or parry to an attack with the same sword. Which is an interesting idea to think about, since that is fundamentally different than when using a single sword with two hands. Niten Ryu is a GREAT ryu to study from...bastardized or not. And yes, totally different set of circumstances since now you don't have to stop an attack per se, I imagine you have a lot more options for counter attacks. Since you practice Katori shinto-ryu (a solid school from my limited knowledge of it and one I would definitely check out given the chance), could you expand on how you go about the block/parry and counter? If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about how you're taught hand positioning, engagement and disengagement of the opponent's blade. I'm always interested in adding new ideas to the mix. Ok, I hope I can answer this in an articulate fashion lol. For the grip, it's basically a full finger-wrap around the tsuka grip. Often we relax the pointer finger (allowing the pinky and ring finger to do most of the gripping). Here is a pic (sorry it's small, I am not sure who the practitioners are). Now our wrists do bend a bit, but not during "blocks" (I use quotes because I'll explain it below), generally only on cuts. I think a certain amount is required when swinging a sword and changing kamae etc. So for "blocking" or countering, here is a good example of the first kata in the Omote set (translates to outer, or beginner? set of kata). The person attacking has just cut to the defender's head, and the defender has "blocked" it using a tori block. Now you think...that is most assuredly edge on edge contact, which it is. BUT...the advance form, changes the timing and distance entirely. (I don't know who these people are, I was just grabbing images off the net) The defender waits for the attacker to commit to his attack, as their arms are about to descend, the defender steps IN to pre-cut the attacker's arms before the blow lands, coming under the sword. So instead of staying out far and taking the blade edge on edge, he intercepts the attack with a counter attack. Neither technique is wrong, just one is more risky than the other and thus left for more advanced practitioners. So much of the Omote set looks like blocking, when in fact if the timing and distance is changed it becomes a counter cut, or an intercepting cut. We also step off the attacker's line to counter cut and avoid his blade entirely. There are instances too where the opponent is cutting over head toward our head, and we counter-cut to center and ever so slightly dominate the center line, forcing their blade just off to the side. But things get VERY interesting when the rhythm of the kata is varied (so you aren't just dancing like automotons) and you stop anticipating the next move. You can really play with pressure, timing, speed, distance. I rarely have a practice when I don't have a major light bulb moment. It also teaches you a lot about how best to move your body. So many sublte things...it's quite intricate and smooth at the same time. So this is a very good question and each type of attack has it's own solution.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 24, 2018 19:27:10 GMT
MLanteigne thanks for that thorough reply, that was really well articulated. I had a bit of fun experimenting around with that exercise for a few hours yesterday. That specific kata seems to lend itself very well to a parry and a follow up attack towards the opponent's right side by pivoting off of your left foot after initially stepping in with the right while executing the block. It seemed like the most fluid/natural variant from what I messed around with was one where, like you described, you move around the opponent's side and easily connect with their arm as you pass. Would have to spend more time with a buddy and a couple of bokkens to test out the strategy in more detail, but yesterday was a fun start. Something that was pretty entertaining, getting back to the point about different styles, is that when I did a brief amount of sparring with two bokken rather than one I felt much more confident in my abilities and parries and attacks just happened by themselves, no effort compared to using a single bokken. I really need to spend more time training with a single sword, it seems my focus on using one in each hand has created a deficiency in some areas of my swordsmanship. The method of gripping sounds very similar to how I go about it, very lax index finger for directing changes in angle while the bottom three fingers do the bulk of the gripping and the thumb provides support. So that seems to be a stylistic constant across several different styles/schools from what I'm seeing, which is fun to note. And dangit, derailed another thread again. I seriously am considering picking up a lowlander sword and naming it the Derailer the more this happens
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 26, 2018 21:28:57 GMT
That's an interesting observation. It dovetails with a lot of other sword arts I've dabbled in, where the "block" is a matter of occupying key space in a counter. The goal is not to have contact with the blade though that may happen. Also I wonder how much the binding work in some texts was intended to serve as training wheels.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 18, 2018 19:14:21 GMT
I've delivered and blocked attacks with live blade and paid the togishi for the repairs. I don't have any say or interest in the technique argument but I am curious, how would does one repair the edge of a katana? I know that with sabres I'm used to you just file down the edge, and then put a new edge on or round out the nicks in the edge, (the latter only if they're very shallow) but I assume it's different with the typical DH or folded katana?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2018 19:48:56 GMT
If it is just rolled, it can be rolled back. Otherwise the blade has to be re-profiled. That's why a chip through the hamon is considered a fatal flaw. Had to go digging but there's one photo I caught from the damage my blade took in a quick "oh crap" edge block when a friend stumbled during live blade training. Attachments:
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 18, 2018 20:38:59 GMT
If it is just rolled, it can be rolled back. Otherwise the blade has to be re-profiled. That's why a chip through the hamon is considered a fatal flaw. Had to go digging but there's one photo I caught from the damage my blade took in a quick "oh crap" edge block when a friend stumbled during live blade training. Ahhh okay. Do you also have to reharden the edge or just reprofile?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2018 21:01:31 GMT
I didn't do the work, but the edge needed to be reshaped. The steel there was already hardened since the damage was contained inside the hamon and did not extend past it.
I am sure you could technically redo the heat treatment (or have it redone for you), but that would be pretty involved by the time you're done reshaping the edge, heat treating / quenching, and clean up I am not sure you'd have saved much of anything over just replacing the sword at that point.
This is one of those areas where preventing a problem from happening in the first place is far superior to curing it after the fact.
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