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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 4:10:34 GMT
Oh stop with the attitude. You offered to provide pictures of the technique and now you can't/won't. Typical. Get over yourself iaidoka.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 4:31:32 GMT
Hi, it's 11:30 PM and I have work. I'll see if I can half-ass a photograph for you at a more convenient time.
Hugs and kisses.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 4:41:46 GMT
Yer the best.
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Post by zabazagobo on Feb 23, 2018 5:03:54 GMT
Dude, MLanteigne , rotating a blade for a parry or block is darn pretty easy. 90 degrees is an overstatement, perhaps 20 degrees is more appropriate, but an edge is a tiny part of the sword, it doesn't take much to manuevre it out of the way. You can easily shift the position of your edge with a subtle movement of the wrist that does not significantly alter your wrist strength so that the flat meets your opponent's edge. From my experience, parrying and blocking with the edge is generally not advisable, you're asking for it to get banged up and take chips. The more you do so, the more the chips will work against you and next thing you know your blade fails because cracks build up. I've seen what happens when you parry or block with the edge. Chips and rolls. It sucks. I've seen what happens when you use the flat. Scratches. Since using the flat is already very easy and does not significantly compromise your ability to block, there's no reason to damage the edge unless you specifically want to grind the edges for a particular tactic. What style of kenjutsu do you practice? It's odd that something like this isn't covered in much detail, maybe they have a different philosophy behind blocking. If you'd care to elaborate on how your style teaches blocks and parries I'd welcome the information
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 12:52:48 GMT
Hey Z,
Sure rotating your wrist is easy but why would you? I remember the Seitei version of Uke Nagashi doing this exact movement. The koryu version did not.
The notion that you must somehow protect the edge at all costs is illogical. The only part of the blade that needs to be maintained is the monouchi. Thats the cutting part. The rest can take chips, rolls etc. without compromising the effectiveness of the blade. Swords are tools. They will get damaged in a fight. But that isn't a valid reason to protect the edge and instead risk a weaker body structure using an angled block. Try some partner work. You will see why.
Again, there are countless historical blades that have edge damage up to the monouchi that illustrates this perfectly. Years ago my dojo was allowed to view several blades at the Royal Ontario Museum in the their storage area. Many had clear damage caused by other edged weapons but in each case the monouchi was untouched. These were of course historical blades.
I started out in MJER Iaido under the ZNKR and managed to earn a shodan ranking. I left and began training in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu which also has an Iai component on top of naginata and bojutsu. There are also other weapons and forms later on.
So you think its odd that there is no protecting of the edge in kenjutsu? Have you ever done kenjutsu or is your experience strictly limited to Iaido? The reason I ask is because in KSR, all of our "blocks" are technically attacks if you go beyond the basic forms. So what may appear as a "do uke", a block to the body of the opponent's sword, quickly becomes a cut to their wrists when you change the distance. If we angled our own wrists to use the ridge or spine, this would completely negate our cutting ability. This is a truism throught all of the kata I have been exposed to.
Same goes for "parrying". In your ryu do you discuss lines of attack at all? Occupying the center?
It is also imperative that our body structure is optimized to maximize leverage, speed and power. Otherwise your attack becomes weak which can lead to "death". So why compromise your wrist by angling it, to protect a part of the sword you dont't need to? They get damaged, that is the way of things. But viewing edge damage through a modern perspective inhibits reasoning and deduction, not enhance it.
And that to me is a major diference in modern budo vs koryu. So much is lost and not explained in Iaido. Having done both now I can see the differences quite clearly. Iaido is still viable as an art form but it is only a small piece of the whole, whereas kenjutsu offers more.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 13:40:59 GMT
Since apparently you have to spell things out, here's a set of attached images. The imgur code wasn't working for me and I've got to run so they are attached to the post instead of inserted in it. People think in order to turn the edge away you end up with a compromised structure. That isn't necessarily the case. Sure you can do it, but instead you can turn or rotate the sword in the hand so you have the same kind of structure you'd have as if the edge were facing out. No bend or roll in the wrist required. If you like, you can even turn the sword 180 full degrees so the mune or back of the blade is facing out. The hand is not welded into a locked dead shape. The pressure of the grip can change, the fingers articulate.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 15:43:20 GMT
Looking at that grip, I could knock your sword out of your hand with a wet spaghetti noodle.
What is your kenjutsu experience or experience doing paired kata?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 15:46:13 GMT
Maybe someone else could but you'd have a time of it from behind a monitor.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 15:47:00 GMT
Structurally there is no way that is as strong as having the mune side of the tsuka pressed into the back of your hand with your fingers around it. Imagine taking a hit to the mune while your grip is like that. Even a shot in the ha, I would hate for my hands to be in that position.
And turning the sword like that in the hand....just why lol.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 15:48:56 GMT
Maybe someone else could but you'd have a time of it from behind a monitor. Are you seriously trying to talk tough now? Pretty frail ego you have there. And if you cant see why I made my comment about knocking your sword out of your hand, then thats a training issue. Care to answer my question? What is your kenjutsu or paired kata experience?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 15:50:44 GMT
Come over any time it will be a pleasure to show you.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 15:52:09 GMT
Where are you?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 15:59:40 GMT
NH seacoast area, an hour drive in any direction isn't unmanageable for me.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 16:06:58 GMT
Portsmouth is a bit of a jaunt for me lol
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 16:42:39 GMT
That creates an impass doesn't it. I don't particularly care about what you can do and I can't say your name really stands out to me. It doesn't sound like I'm likely to run into you outside of the internet so I think this really bizarre and awkward segue can come to a close.
I hope the photos might be of interest to others.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 16:55:20 GMT
On a serious note turn the meta data off on your cell phone. Otherwise its giving out the precise location of where your pics are taken.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 17:06:00 GMT
If I was interested in hiding from you I wouldn't have extended the invitation you creepy stalker!
You other guys are seeing this, right?
This is just embarrassing now. Should have followed my intuition and gone for the block last night. All set now.
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 17:21:39 GMT
There may be other people in your house who do not want their location so blatantly posted on the internet. This is a basic safety premise that any person using a digital device knows about. Not my fault you're unaware of it.
Stop being a self centred ignoramus.
And for the record, YOU are the one calling me out, not vice versa. Maybe its time you grew up a little.
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Post by Cosmoline on Feb 23, 2018 18:53:12 GMT
I don't want to derail into HEMA, so let me ask it this way--if you use the flat of a katana to displace, but the attacker's blade slips down towards your hands, will the tsuba reliably protect the hand and wrist? Or is it just there to keep your own hand from sliding onto the blade? In short, the answer is yes, it will protect it. But just for information's sake, in many techniques that have blocking/parrying in JSA, it's in my experience that when that technique is applied in battle, the best/most effective way to do it is to do it in a way that you don't rely on the blocking/parrying aspect of it, but instead just get out of the way of your enemy's blade. An example is Ukenagashi. In Ukenagashi, we block the opponents overhead cut by raising our blade over our heads horizontally (slightly pointing to the ground, so that the enemy's blade will slide down away from us/our tsuba) then turn away from the opponent, then strike. This is the technique, but in a real application, a skilled swordsman in JSA will still raise the sword with the intention to block, but they will put a large effort to turn away and dodge the blade, then cut down the opponent - all without even making contact with the enemy's blade. Sorry if my explanation is not clear, it's easier shown than written. It sounds like abnemen from the German longsword and messer systems. If the pressure is strong, the blade will slide off. Thinking about it, most of the times the crossguard comes into play involve treadthroughs and similar moves that probably don't exist in JSA. And AFAIK the tsuba is never used as the nagel in messer (for example in the inverted parry).
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Post by MLanteigne on Feb 23, 2018 19:54:14 GMT
Yeah I agree. The crossguards on western swords have a much more active roll in swordplay. Which is interesting in itself.
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