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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 20, 2017 4:34:30 GMT
Yes, you just need some suitable weight. For a practice spear, doesn't need to be realistic. Maybe a length of pipe, some lead flashing wrapped around the butt end, a pipe with end cap and some heavy filler. Lots of stuff will work.
Sticking to double the weight of the head means that the butt will be heavier than historical average (about 330g), since the head is heavier (about 360g) than historical average (about 155g). But if you want something like historical balance (and therefore reach), 2:1 is good.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Dec 20, 2017 14:02:27 GMT
Does anyone have any experience with the Condor made spears?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 20, 2017 20:04:25 GMT
Never played with one, and haven't heard from anyone who has. They don't give much info on their website: www.condortk.com/productos-detalle.php?producto=26&cat=33but poking around the web, the good news is that it's only 2.1lb, so even with a butt added, the weight might still be good. The bad news is that it's only 5' long.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 21, 2017 1:23:52 GMT
Or you might buy a spear try it and if you think a weight would enhance it buy a weight. I have two spears with no butt weight. One of the spears I thought surely I'd need one and found I didn't. Both balance well enough and are probably a bit faster without it.
I am not familiar with Condor's spear but the products I've heard about are good. My engineer bolo is well made. 5' is generally short for a spear but the haft can be changed if you got a case of "gotta have it" for that spear.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 29, 2017 20:33:22 GMT
Or you might buy a spear try it and if you think a weight would enhance it buy a weight. I have two spears with no butt weight. One of the spears I thought surely I'd need one and found I didn't. Both balance well enough and are probably a bit faster without it. I am not familiar with Condor's spear but the products I've heard about are good. My engineer bolo is well made. 5' is generally short for a spear but the haft can be changed if you got a case of "gotta have it" for that spear. Hmm, well I do actually like the look (and longer length) of the other spear I mentioned, how hard would it be to add a weight to it? On the other hand the spear that was suggested already is the cheapest and probably easiest option.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 30, 2017 0:18:02 GMT
Yes, you just need some suitable weight. For a practice spear, doesn't need to be realistic. Maybe a length of pipe, some lead flashing wrapped around the butt end, a pipe with end cap and some heavy filler. Lots of stuff will work. Sticking to double the weight of the head means that the butt will be heavier than historical average (about 330g), since the head is heavier (about 360g) than historical average (about 155g). But if you want something like historical balance (and therefore reach), 2:1 is good. Wait, so historically the butt spike of a spear was double the weight of the head? That's very interesting... Are we talking all spears from all periods, or just Greek spears?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 30, 2017 2:15:41 GMT
Just the dory. For Greek javelins, the butt and head were often about the same weight. For the sarissa, the butt is much heavier (about 1kg) and the head is probably lighter (possibly 100g). That's a pretty extreme 10:1 ratio, but that's due to the length of the sarissa. In a phalanx, whether with dory or sarissa, it's good to have the POB fairly far back, so that less butt is behind you to get in the way of the rear ranks. For more open formations, where there is more room behind you, that doesn't matter as much.
For short two-handed spears, butt pieces are often light or absent, while heads are typically heavier.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 30, 2017 3:30:22 GMT
Or you might buy a spear try it and if you think a weight would enhance it buy a weight. I have two spears with no butt weight. One of the spears I thought surely I'd need one and found I didn't. Both balance well enough and are probably a bit faster without it. I am not familiar with Condor's spear but the products I've heard about are good. My engineer bolo is well made. 5' is generally short for a spear but the haft can be changed if you got a case of "gotta have it" for that spear. Hmm, well I do actually like the look (and longer length) of the other spear I mentioned, how hard would it be to add a weight to it? On the other hand the spear that was suggested already is the cheapest and probably easiest option. Both MRL and KoA have butt caps. To install one you would first need to taper the haft to match the taper in the cap's socket. If the cap has no holes drill at least two. After mounting the cap put a screw in each or the holes to insure the cap stays fixed.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 31, 2017 18:59:59 GMT
Just the dory. For Greek javelins, the butt and head were often about the same weight. For the sarissa, the butt is much heavier (about 1kg) and the head is probably lighter (possibly 100g). That's a pretty extreme 10:1 ratio, but that's due to the length of the sarissa. In a phalanx, whether with dory or sarissa, it's good to have the POB fairly far back, so that less butt is behind you to get in the way of the rear ranks. For more open formations, where there is more room behind you, that doesn't matter as much. For short two-handed spears, butt pieces are often light or absent, while heads are typically heavier. Fascinating. So I assume Viking spears and spears of the Early Middle ages lacked butt spikes, or had very light ones at most?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 31, 2017 23:50:04 GMT
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jan 1, 2018 20:27:40 GMT
Interesting... why do you think this was? Different tactics applied by Norse/Dark Ages warriors and Greeks?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 1, 2018 21:20:08 GMT
If your shield wall is more spread out, especially if it's just a single row, or the second and other rows are spaced further apart, you don't have to worry about hitting somebody behind you with your butt. Compare with a 4 or 8 deep close order hoplite phalanx.
I don't know of any sources that give clear information on depth and frontage-per-man for Medieval shield walls. The spacing between rows will be more important than frontage.
Metal butts were sometimes used on Early Modern European pikes. These were usually light. Possibly a major function was to stop pikemen from shortening their pikes.
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seth
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Post by seth on Jan 19, 2018 20:29:08 GMT
As an alternative, you could get the Windlass Steelcrafts spearhead and sauroter and haft them yourself (or have someone haft them for you). Would look a hell of a lot better than any of the replicas nominally based on 300... I have this set mounted to a shaft and they are very nice. It was originally mounted to a 8' shaft, but now is on a 6' shaft for more convenience in displaying.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 20, 2018 2:03:03 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 20, 2018 2:36:08 GMT
A little heavy, but only a little. Non-giant socket. Would be usable as is, and if the sockets are shortened a little (to reduce the internal diameter from 7/8" to 3/4", assuming that 7/8" is internal) and the head sharpened, the head might be at typical historical weight.
Looks like Deepeeka has been working with Greek/Roman re-enactors again.
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 26, 2018 3:00:42 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 26, 2018 6:45:52 GMT
It's structurally sound enough. AFAIK, it comes with the head unmounted, and with screws supplied. Drill pilot holes, and screw away. If it doesn't come with screws, yes, use wood screws (or nails).
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 26, 2018 16:49:08 GMT
It's structurally sound enough. AFAIK, it comes with the head unmounted, and with screws supplied. Drill pilot holes, and screw away. If it doesn't come with screws, yes, use wood screws (or nails). Thanks a lot for all the help!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 26, 2018 17:30:07 GMT
That’s a good spear and will give you good service. I have the short version of the same. The spear head is stamped out of sheet metal with sharp edges. It probably performs better than other spear heads costing more. While not intended for cutting it will slice a plastic bottle in half. If the exposed haft end bothers you, it did me, spray paint after installing with flat black. Unless CS has changed its policy screws are included. If not 2 wood screws will do the trick, no nails. Shows painted haft end. Front side For what it's worth, I added upholstery tacks to know blade orientation by feel without looking.
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Post by antoine99 on Jan 26, 2018 21:41:37 GMT
That’s a good spear and will give you good service. I have the short version of the same. The spear head is stamped out of sheet metal with sharp edges. It probably performs better than other spear heads costing more. While not intended for cutting it will slice a plastic bottle in half. If the exposed haft end bothers you, it did me, spray paint after installing with flat black. Unless CS has changed its policy screws are included. If not 2 wood screws will do the trick, no nails. Shows painted haft end. Front side For what it's worth, I added upholstery tacks to know blade orientation by feel without looking. Thanks It does look very pretty, especially for that price. I'm kind of surprised there aren't that many Dory reproductions available, I thought the famous Greek spear would be more popular. Also those tacks are a great idea EDIT: Something just occurred to me; I have one of those adjustable painter sticks, if the weight is roughly similar to that I can use that as a practice "spear". Also it's adjustable! I'll try to find it tomorrow. Still definitely buying the CS spear though.
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