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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 17, 2017 18:58:49 GMT
They used it this way:
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 17, 2017 19:30:41 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2017 20:08:22 GMT
I can see some advantages to a long spear but not that long. All your enemy has to do is push your spear to the side with his shield and move in. All you could do to stop him is to keep moving backwards. No one ever won a battle moving backwards. Bigger is not always better. That would be entirely true in one-on-one situation. In a warring situation where there would be a formation of several ranks in depth and several columns broad not so easy. The man in the first rank would not necessarily engage the man in front of him but could engage another man several columns distance if an opportunity opened. Or someone several ranks behind could stick the man that is dealing with a spearman from someone in front. On a one-on-one situation I see no problem in knocking the sarisssa off line in stepping in. But in formation while the enemy is busy knocking a spear off line and stepping in one or more of his opponents on the other side will be sticking him. Take a look at Andi’s diagram.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 20:48:12 GMT
Oh by the way, about using spears, I watched a video about the "broken wrist" position on swords (not spears) where the person describes how not to thrust with a sword, which is ironically exactly the way I picture you are supposed to thrust underhand with a spear, is it different somehow for a spear, as in not as dangerous? In the video he describes a sort of rigid hammer grip with sword thrusts that you are not supposed to use, since if you hit something your wrist would potentially get injured or something over time.
I'm aware of the overhand grip/thrust but I'm wondering about the underhand position, specifically for one-handed spears. I can't really imagine any other way to hold a spear underhanded, maybe back then they didn't really care about that? Especially since it might be something that would develop over time?
Thanks again for all the comments everyone, learned a lot of stuff.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 21:42:36 GMT
I`ve been thrusting at my hanging bag and pells with sticks and swords using a hammer grip for quite some time know and despite not having the healthiest wrists I never had a problem with that. According to modern recreationists, though, swords should be held much like a toothbrush somehow and even grabbed by the pommel only while thrusting – because of superior body mechanics and whatnot, lol. Also you wouldn`t need to strike with full power in all attacks - the weight and momentum of the spear will do the job just fine. Overpenetrating could be a bigger problem than not penetrating at all. Ah alright, thanks. I suppose in my case it doesn't really matter since I don't plan to stab anything, and using that broken wrist position with swords feels pretty awkward anyway so I don't do it. I only have a gladius, so I'm practicing thrusting with that sort of hammer grip, but not straight out, more up like I think Legionaries do in formation so the balance is ok (I don't hit anything with the gladius either). I tried the broken wrist position grip just to see what not to do and tried to use the gladius like a regular sword and it felt very wrong. Thrusting low confuses me though since you are forced more into that grip. How would that work, do I just hold my arm straight down, then keep it straight and swing it up? Like the exact opposite of an icepick attack? I watched this video and it seems like some of these attacks do use the broken wrist position, if you encounter armor and don't penetrate, or otherwise hit something hard: Here's the broken wrist video:
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 22:04:53 GMT
If you want to hit hard, swing upwards, using hips and lats. Then you have the stable hammer grip. The straight forward thrust is weaker anyways, using the front delts and triceps, mainly. Impact won’t be that hard, really, unless you really twist the hips through and angle the elbow sideways or shrug up the trapezius. I’d use the straight forwards thrust for quick, light jabs only, these shouldn’t hurt the wrist too much. Makes sense, thanks
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 17, 2017 22:10:17 GMT
Oh by the way, about using spears, I watched a video about the "broken wrist" position on swords (not spears) where the person describes how not to thrust with a sword, which is ironically exactly the way I picture you are supposed to thrust underhand with a spear, is it different somehow for a spear, as in not as dangerous? In the video he describes a sort of rigid hammer grip with sword thrusts that you are not supposed to use, since if you hit something your wrist would potentially get injured or something over time. I'm aware of the overhand grip/thrust but I'm wondering about the underhand position, specifically for one-handed spears. I can't really imagine any other way to hold a spear underhanded, maybe back then they didn't really care about that? Especially since it might be something that would develop over time? Yes, that "broken wrist" position is bad. Why is why you either (a) use handshake grip (which will give you a straight(er) wrist, (b) keep a comfortable angle between sword and forearm if you're using hammer grip, or (c) use a "pistol" style grip (pistol-grip fencing swords, kukri, various Philippine swords) - doesn't need to be a full-on pistol, something like a barong hilt is enough. While (b) gives up reach, it's also the kind of thrust you might use to get around a shield (consider the gladius and its use). Very easy to hold a one-handed thrusting spear in a handshake grip, so I don't think there is any biomechanical problem with the underhand thumb-forward thrust. The hand and wrist are in the same kind of position as for non-icepick knife/dagger thrusts, and they work fine. The overhand thumb-backward thrust is the same hand/wrist position as an icepick stab (but you stab forwards rather than down, because spear). Both are shown in art, but overhand thumb-back, with the spear above the shield, is usual. Underhand, thumb-forward, with the spear below the shield is shown. But there are practical problems with using the underhand low thrust in a phalanx, so IMO easy to see why it isn't common. The real competitor for the usual overhand thumb-back thrust is the overhand thumb-forward thrust (same grip as the underhand thumb-forward, but with the spear lifted above the shield). Thumb-forward gives more reach. One serious problem might be that you can easily pull the spear back as far, so might be unable to hit an opponent who is standing shield-to-shield (you should try this when you get a spear or practice pole!). Some interesting discussion of this: hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/christopher-mathews-flawed-analysis-of.htmlI can see some advantages to a long spear but not that long. All your enemy has to do is push your spear to the side with his shield and move in. All you could do to stop him is to keep moving backwards. No one ever won a battle moving backwards. Bigger is not always better. One-on-one, against sword and shield, you want a shorter spear (for speed), perhaps 7-8'. Where the long pike wins is against a pike 3' shorter. If your enemy has 12' spears, bring 15' spears and you can win the infantry battle. If you enemy has 15' pikes, bring 18' pikes. Once the limit of how long you can go with reasonable weight is reach (typically, about 18'), everybody uses those. Unless the soldiers cut off the bottom yard of their hafts to have less weight to carry, and then proceed to lose against better disciplined pikemen (better disciplined in that they haven't shortened their pikes). But an 18' pike might not always be better than a 9' spear (or other 9' polearm). It tended to crush hoplite phalanxes, but perhaps the one-handed spear is not good vs pike. Two-handed polearms have done better (but then you need good armour for at least your front-rank soldiers), e.g., Flodden. As for sword and shield vs pike, formation vs formation, it's been tried. Works very well against disrupted pike formations. Good pikemen, in intact formation, have crushed the sword-and-shield men. The Spanish experience: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RodelerosThen there is the Roman experience. A famous victory at Cynoscephalae: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cynoscephalae and plenty of defeats (e.g., repeatedly against Pyrrhus).
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 22:25:32 GMT
I see, great info, thanks! I'm just trying to be extra cautious.
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2017 22:46:44 GMT
I reckon there are countless techniques for a spear. I hear the Zulus used short hafts that they thrust upwards from under their shields. While I don’t doubt that I’ve seen Zulu photos of them with spears longer than the man and a shield larger than the spearman. I’ve also seen photos of them with shields more the size of a buckler. I have a short spear that my buckler and heater shield will hide and I feel comfortable with an underhand thrust using a hammer grip with it. In fact that feels the most natural. I have a Chinese spear that feels best in both hands and thrusting with a hand shake grip as I do with my European spear. As for power, sword or spear, an upward thrust will give power and often is harder parry, but can be rather difficult to execute with a long spear. When giving a thrust I will step in. It’s surprising how much more energy those legs will create.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 22:51:23 GMT
I reckon there are countless techniques for a spear. I hear the Zulus used short hafts that they thrust upwards from under their shields. While I don’t doubt that I’ve seen Zulu photos of them with spears longer than the man and a shield larger than the spearman. I’ve also seen photos of them with shields more the size of a buckler. I have a short spear that my buckler and heater shield will hide and I feel comfortable with an underhand thrust using a hammer grip with it. In fact that feels the most natural. I have a Chinese spear that feels best in both hands and thrusting with a hand shake grip as I do with my European spear. As for power, sword or spear, an upward thrust will give power and often is harder parry, but can be rather difficult to execute with a long spear. When giving a thrust I will step in. It’s surprising how much more energy those legs will create. I see, I was for some reason just thinking of a perfectly straight mid-line thrust with an underhand grip. How would you block/parry something like that thrust though? From a sword I mean, for example a Roman thrusting up. Just thinking about it, it seems hopeless. I have no idea what I'd do (besides cry). I mean like in a duel-type scenario, otherwise you'd probably have a shield. An actual thrust like that during battle conditions (where you are trying to survive and kill people) I would assume is very strong and quick.
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Post by pgandy on Dec 18, 2017 1:57:15 GMT
How would you block/parry something like that thrust though? From a sword I mean, for example a Roman thrusting up. Just thinking about it, it seems hopeless. It looks like you got the idea, but not completely hopeless. I don’t worry about cuts as they are fairly easy to block compared to a thrust. I found that out stick fighting. I do fear a thrust as they come fast and are hard to block. A cut is a two count exercise while a thrust is one. Fast reflexes and outstanding foot work are about the best defense. I do like a shield if no more than a buckler. The argument concerning cuts vs thrusts is age old and still going on. There are times when one would be preferred over the other, but generally speaking I find a thrust will get through when a cut won’t. You’d be surprised the adverse effect clothes have on cutting. Using a gallon heavy duty plastic jug I’ve had a single rug prevent my katana from cutting, the jug did show trauma. With the same type of jug I’ve gone through six layers of rugs before completely penetrating the jug with a thrusting sword.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 18, 2017 2:26:05 GMT
How would you block/parry something like that thrust though? From a sword I mean, for example a Roman thrusting up. Just thinking about it, it seems hopeless. It looks like you got the idea, but not completely hopeless. I don’t worry about cuts as they are fairly easy to block compared to a thrust. I found that out stick fighting. I do fear a thrust as they come fast and are hard to block. A cut is a two count exercise while a thrust is one. Fast reflexes and outstanding foot work are about the best defense. I do like a shield if no more than a buckler. The argument concerning cuts vs thrusts is age old and still going on. There are times when one would be preferred over the other, but generally speaking I find a thrust will get through when a cut won’t. You’d be surprised the adverse effect clothes have on cutting. Using a gallon heavy duty plastic jug I’ve had a single rug prevent my katana from cutting, the jug did show trauma. With the same type of jug I’ve gone through six layers of rugs before completely penetrating the jug with a thrusting sword. Yeah, for example I've never done HEMA or sparred or anything, and I at least have a basic idea of what to do to counter a slashing blow. I would probably fail being completely inexperienced but I'd have a chance. With a thrust though, lol.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 19, 2017 19:41:45 GMT
You should take a look at Sir William Hope’s „New Method of Fencing”. There must be a pdf out there or at least a free text. It helped my fencing tremendously and even sword and shield – any type of sword and shield. I agree, the upwards thrust from below is one of the hardest attacks to parry. Hope's method gives you an easy to follow strategy to deal with any attack, though, may it be thrusts or cuts. And remember, while he attacks on the low line, you also threaten him on the high line. Also it is easier to parry from high downwards than the other way around. Then again, of course there are tricks like this, too: www.abnewswire.com/uploads/4fe2abb45291eddabcda7f0d42624a57.jpgThanks I like those medieval-style training pictures, they look so calm and happy I just thought of something about my original topic; is the spear used in 300 actually supposed to be (or at least represent) a Dory? I looked at some clips and judging by the height of the spear relative to the height of the men it looks more or less correct. The spearhead seemed a bit small though maybe. I'm wondering because of the sword they use, which is fantasy (I think), but still looks pretty good. I actually wanted to buy one after watching Skallagrim's budget swords in the $150ish range, one of them was that sword, but they apparently don't offer them anymore, or the ones they have are blunt and/or munitions grade. Anyway I'd probably rather have a Kopis since it looks vaguely similar and is actually real. But first I'll probably get the spear somehow.
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Post by pgandy on Dec 19, 2017 23:03:08 GMT
You should take a look at Sir William Hope’s „New Method of Fencing”. There must be a pdf out there or at least a free text. It helped my fencing tremendously and even sword and shield – any type of sword and shield. I agree, the upwards thrust from below is one of the hardest attacks to parry. Hope's method gives you an easy to follow strategy to deal with any attack, though, may it be thrusts or cuts. And remember, while he attacks on the low line, you also threaten him on the high line. Also it is easier to parry from high downwards than the other way around. Then again, of course there are tricks like this, too: www.abnewswire.com/uploads/4fe2abb45291eddabcda7f0d42624a57.jpgI was aware of that move although I was taught it with a slight modification. Using your diagram, one would thrust as the man did but also using a shield held above his head as though to shied rain or provide shade. Obviously we were working in an earlier period than the renaissance shown in your diagram, but what the heck...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 19, 2017 23:33:44 GMT
The spearhead seemed a bit small though maybe. From the photo, it looks like it has about 4.5" of edge, which is reasonable (4-8" of edge seems to be usual). The fat haft will make it look a little smaller. I don't think they made any more effort to make the spear historically accurate than their swords and helmets. The movie versions aim to match the comic versions, and the cheap replicas aim to match the movie versions. Given all that, one could still say that it's meant to be a dory. One could also say it's just a fantasy spear (given the other fantasy gear in the comic).
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 19, 2017 23:36:57 GMT
The spearhead seemed a bit small though maybe. From the photo, it looks like it has about 4.5" of edge, which is reasonable (4-8" of edge seems to be usual). The fat haft will make it look a little smaller. I don't think they made any more effort to make the spear historically accurate than their swords and helmets. The movie versions aim to match the comic versions, and the cheap replicas aim to match the movie versions. Given all that, one could still say that it's meant to be a dory. One could also say it's just a fantasy spear (given the other fantasy gear in the comic). Or you could say, if you have a real Dory, it will look just as badass (if not more) than the movie spear They took some liberties to show off the individual actors though, especially not wearing any chest armor, I think they said they wanted them to look tough and show how strong they are. Also they said they knocked their helmets off frequently so you could distinguish between them. But what do you think about that sword they use? Would it be practical if it was real? it looks strange, a real kopis I assume would be much better (probably obvious since it's not fantasy lol). It looks nothing like a xiphos so nevermind that.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 20, 2017 0:55:35 GMT
Maybe more badass, but less Frank Miller. Assuming it was made with similar weight, blade thickness, and hilt weight, the biggest functional difference between a replica of the movie sword and a real kopis would be the ricasso. Which would the real kopis a bit better, IMO, since I think there is more use for an edge near the guard on a sword like this than a long ricasso. Of course, given that replicas are usually more than 1lb overweight compared to a real kopis, you don't usually get that similar weight etc. part. More generally, for kopis vs xiphos, I'd be happy to get to use a kopis instead of a xiphos (and judging by art, many Greeks were happy with one too). Not that a xiphos sucks, just that I'd like a kopis. A nice kopis replica: www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms/greek-and-roman-arms/korfu-kopis/623A cheap kopis replica: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH4237W and www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH4237H&name=Greek+Kopis (in two models with wood and horn grips). That's a raised rib on the blade, not a fuller - I like how Deepeeka did the blade. The guard and grip is a bit fugly, but this looks like it has real potential as a project blade.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 20, 2017 1:16:00 GMT
Maybe more badass, but less Frank Miller. Assuming it was made with similar weight, blade thickness, and hilt weight, the biggest functional difference between a replica of the movie sword and a real kopis would be the ricasso. Which would the real kopis a bit better, IMO, since I think there is more use for an edge near the guard on a sword like this than a long ricasso. Of course, given that replicas are usually more than 1lb overweight compared to a real kopis, you don't usually get that similar weight etc. part. More generally, for kopis vs xiphos, I'd be happy to get to use a kopis instead of a xiphos (and judging by art, many Greeks were happy with one too). Not that a xiphos sucks, just that I'd like a kopis. A nice kopis replica: www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms/greek-and-roman-arms/korfu-kopis/623A cheap kopis replica: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH4237W and www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH4237H&name=Greek+Kopis (in two models with wood and horn grips). That's a raised rib on the blade, not a fuller - I like how Deepeeka did the blade. The guard and grip is a bit fugly, but this looks like it has real potential as a project blade. Ah, great info, thanks, I never knew what a ricasso was. I was actually looking to buy this one sometime: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AK008I prefer that look over those other two, and I saw a nice review on it on Youtube by Skallagrim as well, it seems really tough (especially good since I don't intend to hit anything with it, so it should last forever). Maybe it's not 100% historically accurate, but I do like it. One part I do like from the movie sword is the handle. No spot for catching a blade but whatever, I don't think that little stick thingy on the kopis I listed is for doing that either, I read someone say it's probably for protection while unsheathing it, somehow. Also, btw Timo, you recommended this then? www.coldsteel.com/products/spears/assegai-with-long-shaft.htmlYou said it would be a good one-handed practice Dory? That looks aesthetically pleasing to me. I don't mind it not having a butt-spike. EDIT: Actually I found that same one on E-bay for almost half the price (the new Cold Steel ones are out of stock): www.ebay.com/itm/Cold-Steel-Assegai-Spear-SK-5-Medium-Carbon-With-Long-American-Ash-Shaft-95ES/332452177704?epid=1100413181&hash=item4d67b1a728:g:0QkAAOSwySVaDd5Y
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 20, 2017 2:50:52 GMT
I was actually looking to buy this one sometime: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AK008I prefer that look over those other two, and I saw a nice review on it on Youtube by Skallagrim as well, it seems really tough (especially good since I don't intend to hit anything with it, so it should last forever). Maybe it's not 100% historically accurate, but I do like it. Also, btw Timo, you recommended this then? www.coldsteel.com/products/spears/assegai-with-long-shaft.htmlYou said it would be a good one-handed practice Dory? That looks aesthetically pleasing to me. I don't mind it not having a butt-spike. The CS spear is cheap and functional. The head is heavier than you want, but you're not likely to find better on a cheap production spear. You would want to put a heavy butt on it, for balance, to use it as a dory (how heavy? the usual butt is double the weight of the usual head, so about 700g, which puts the total weight at about 2kg - heavy, but might work as heavy practice spear). CS RRPs are high, and it's usually easy to find dealers who sell for much lower prices. You'll do much better with DIY with a lighter head. The Devil's Edge kopis looks nice, and the hilt looks nicer than the Deepeeka. Very heavy though (for a kopis). I prefer 16" kukri to be lighter than that.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 20, 2017 3:17:30 GMT
I was actually looking to buy this one sometime: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AK008I prefer that look over those other two, and I saw a nice review on it on Youtube by Skallagrim as well, it seems really tough (especially good since I don't intend to hit anything with it, so it should last forever). Maybe it's not 100% historically accurate, but I do like it. Also, btw Timo, you recommended this then? www.coldsteel.com/products/spears/assegai-with-long-shaft.htmlYou said it would be a good one-handed practice Dory? That looks aesthetically pleasing to me. I don't mind it not having a butt-spike. The CS spear is cheap and functional. The head is heavier than you want, but you're not likely to find better on a cheap production spear. You would want to put a heavy butt on it, for balance, to use it as a dory (how heavy? the usual butt is double the weight of the usual head, so about 700g, which puts the total weight at about 2kg - heavy, but might work as heavy practice spear). CS RRPs are high, and it's usually easy to find dealers who sell for much lower prices. You'll do much better with DIY with a lighter head. The Devil's Edge kopis looks nice, and the hilt looks nicer than the Deepeeka. Very heavy though (for a kopis). I prefer 16" kukri to be lighter than that. Thanks again! You're right, for that price for the spear I can't be too picky. It does seem like a good deal though, just for a "poor man's Dory". Even if I don't add a butt for counterweight, I could just add something there that weighs that much for balance. The butt is 2x the weight of the head? Damn, I never would have thought that.
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