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Post by antoine99 on Dec 16, 2017 22:08:12 GMT
Ah, I see. But about the weight, I'm 5 feet 11 inches, and 140 pounds, so clearly I'm no bodybuilder, lol, and I've actually picked up a 32 pound free weight (not quite 44 pounds, but still) and held it like you would hold a scutum, not completely loose but raised, it's hard to explain, and it was very manageable, even for me, but of course I tired quickly, but I assume those guys would have MUCH less trouble, no? Just to build muscle in a fun way. Unless you mean the size, maybe the Romans found an innovative way to increase the weight, maybe by hanging metal off the shield or something.
Also yes, I'm surprised there are so few of those spears for sale, I would have thought that the primary weapon of the famed Greek phalanxes would be pretty popular. Maybe shipping issues due to size.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 16, 2017 22:12:58 GMT
Speed kills!
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 16, 2017 22:55:03 GMT
I've been looking up other random spears, and Cold Steel has some interesting (and cheapish) models, not a Dory, but pretty good looking. I know lots of people don't like CS but they are supposed to at least be pretty tough, and since I don't intend to test cut (stab) anything, I guess it's fine. This one is a perfect 83 inches total: www.coldsteel.com/maa-european-boar-spear.html81 inches, but looks better (aesthetically) IMO, and $50 cheaper: www.coldsteel.com/maa-classic-leaf-shape-spear.htmlBoth spearheads are 1055 high carbon They have no butt-spike, but in my case, I'm more likely to severely injure my floor with it. Also the European spear looks great too. Of course they're out of stock, maybe they will turn up later or elsewhere.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 16, 2017 22:59:23 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 16, 2017 23:05:27 GMT
It's going to be hard to find a 83 inch dory with real steel on both end that's going to weigh much less unless they use balsa wood. If 5 lbs 13 oz. is to heavy for him all I can say is Grow Stronger. An 8' 20mm ash pole is about 1.5lb. A head of historical weight will be another 1/3 lb. A sauroter of historical weight (average is 329g) is another 2/3 lb. That's a total of 2.5lb. The problem isn't that it can't be done. The problem is that most replicas have over-thick hafts, and overweight heads. If you put a head 4 times the weight of the real thing (e.g., use the Windlass dory head), you get an overweight and ill-balanced dory. The Windlass socket is 1 1/8". If that's the inner diameter, a 31mm haft will give a flush fit on the outside, and weigh 3.6lb. If that's the outside diameter, 28mm and 3lb. 3lb for the head and butt together, equals a 6lb or 6.6lb dory. All this means is that the usual replica dory pieces are the equivalent of the 4kg arming sword "replica". "Grow Stronger" might be fine advice, but doesn't make a double-weight replica accurate. One could make a 1.5kg gladius replica, and it would be wieldable. But it would not be accurate, and it would not be a good thing to try to reconstruct historical gladius technique with. A 3lb dory is already a heavy one-handed infantry spear, and you don't want to double that. 19th century spears, as made by people who fought with them (or planned to fight with them), are often 600-800g for 6-6.5'/1.8-2m of spear. Cavalry lances tend to be heavier, and are often 1.5-2.2kg (both Asian and European). 3kg can get you a 5.5m two-handed pike, as we can see from Chinese examples: www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=551211&partId=1 (The British Museum has lots of nice spears, and gives weights for many of them.) (That Deepeeka dory is about 100", not 83". On that listing, that 83" is the haft only (and butt?). Add the 17" head and you get 100". KoA gives the total length as 98.5".)
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 16, 2017 23:12:55 GMT
Do you know what the problem I have with Cold Steel spears are ? They're flat one sided blades made from pressed sheet metal. I know I have two.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 16, 2017 23:18:08 GMT
I've been looking up other random spears, and Cold Steel has some interesting (and cheapish) models, not a Dory, but pretty good looking. A lot of the CS spears look quite good. The ones you mention/link are two-handed spears, and won't do well one-handed. For a practice dory, you could try the CS long-hafted assegai (which is about 2.5lb) and put a butt on it. This one is a perfect 83 inches total: About a foot too short for a dory, and with the heavy head and no butt, the POB will be well forward so you'll have very little reach (for a dory).
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 16, 2017 23:25:29 GMT
Well Timo instead of just debunking everything everyone else is coming up with why don't you find him one.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 16, 2017 23:27:20 GMT
No no it's ok, I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can to make an informed decision. I hadn't considered point of balance either. I think it's obvious but I should mention I plan to train with it 1 handed.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 16, 2017 23:51:18 GMT
Well Timo instead of just debunking everything everyone else is coming up with why don't you find him one. If there were better things to say about the accuracy of the suggested replicas, I'd say them. When they're double or quadruple the weight of the originals they are meant to replicate, some debunking is quite appropriate. For cheap, it'll have to be DIY (and the link posted earlier covers that well). Something like www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=1823092900&name=Small+Spear+Head with the socket shortened a bit (to reduce the inside diameter to about 18mm) should be good. Shortening the socket will cut the weight a bit, and if you sharpen it, that will also lighten it. The Windlass or Deepeeka butts could be lightened by a bit of grinding (the Windlass socket is too large, so the socket would need to be shortened, which might make it too short). The Lord of Battles sauroter is lightweight - maybe some extra weight (e.g., lead) could be added? www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNAW1120&name=Greek+Brass+Sauroter+Spear+ButtcapPut the head and butt on a 20mm ash pole, and it's a good fairly cheap dory of reasonable weight and balance. Manning Imperial does a good head and sauroter, but expensive (that's AUD, not USD, but still expensive): www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/arms/greek-and-roman-arms/spear-head-and-buttspike/619 (I don't know the socket size - if it's in your price range, ask them.)
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 17, 2017 0:12:51 GMT
Yeah that Manning Imperial set is nice. Did you catch the price tag on it, over $600. There you go Antoine your quest is over. Tell you what, to make this easier give us a price range, I know you was looking at eighty something dollar originally so I was trying to stay around there. What's your max ?
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 1:18:19 GMT
So to more or less simulate the thickness of a real Dory, a 20mm thick (around 0.7-0.8 inches) wooden (ash) pole would do? I think I got the length down, it seems to vary, so 7 feet is just fine for me.
I might actually get a thicker piece to increase the weight.
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2017 2:57:24 GMT
Not being familiar with a dory spear I looked it up. Those suckers were 7-9’ in length, had a 2” dia. haft, and weighed up to 4 lb. While the design appeals to your eye and imagination are you sure you really want to handle that? MRL has the parts you could use as MOK stated and during their Christmas sale is offering a 15% discount. Regularly with the promo code it’s 10%. You can probably obtain the haft locally and save as the shipping on that might be high due to the length. CS spears, being stamped, don’t have the eye appeal of other spears but are excellent and I dare say sharper than what else is out there.
Your idea of buying a long wooden pole for practice is an excellent one. The Chinese consider the bo the basis of all pole weapons and teach that first. I learned the bo and have to agree.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 4:30:45 GMT
Not being familiar with a dory spear I looked it up. Those suckers were 7-9’ in length, had a 2” dia. haft, and weighed up to 4 lb. While the design appeals to your eye and imagination are you sure you really want to handle that? MRL has the parts you could use as MOK stated and during their Christmas sale is offering a 15% discount. Regularly with the promo code it’s 10%. You can probably obtain the haft locally and save as the shipping on that might be high due to the length. CS spears, being stamped, don’t have the eye appeal of other spears but are excellent and I dare say sharper than what else is out there. Your idea of buying a long wooden pole for practice is an excellent one. The Chinese consider the bo the basis of all pole weapons and teach that first. I learned the bo and have to agree. Yeah, I was surprised to see how long they were. Why is there such a huge variation though, 7-9 feet, 2 feet is a lot of difference isn't it? I thought there was a longer, separate spear called the sarissa that was longer? Or is the huge variation because historians aren't really sure how long they were in reality and this covers all the possibilities? Also yes, I'd be totally fine handling that (mentally I mean, lol), I want to capture the feel of it and don't want to make it easier, since there's even some strength to be gained. I would make a full weight Aspis if I could, maybe I'll make a simulated shield that's even heavier.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 17, 2017 4:45:55 GMT
Yeah, I was surprised to see how long they were. Why is there such a huge variation though, 7-9 feet, 2 feet is a lot of difference isn't it? I thought there was a longer, separate spear called the sarissa that was longer? Or is the huge variation because historians aren't really sure how long they were in reality and this covers all the possibilities? Yep, there was a longer spear called the Sarissa that was introduced to Greece by Phillip II of Macedon (Alexander the Great's father). They could get up to 20 feet in length if I remember correctly, and were the main weapon of Alexander's world conquering army (at least the phalanx arm of his army).
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 17, 2017 4:54:13 GMT
Sparta was in bad shape by the time Phillip was conquering Greece. Still, the story is, Phillip sent the unyielding Spartans a message "If I defeat you, I will raze Sparta." The Spartans sent back a one-word (laconic) reply "If". Phillip didn't raze Sparta.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 17, 2017 5:09:06 GMT
Yeah, I was surprised to see how long they were. Why is there such a huge variation though, 7-9 feet, 2 feet is a lot of difference isn't it? I thought there was a longer, separate spear called the sarissa that was longer? Or is the huge variation because historians aren't really sure how long they were in reality and this covers all the possibilities? Also yes, I'd be totally fine handling that (mentally I mean, lol), I want to capture the feel of it and don't want to make it easier, since there's even some strength to be gained. I would make a full weight Aspis if I could, maybe I'll make a simulated shield that's even heavier. The sarissa is much bigger. The details are less certain, especially the head. Typical length appears to have been 5.5m/18' (it's a big two-handed pike). Weights vary a lot from reconstruction to reconstruction. Many are too heavy because they use very heavy heads (based on the large heavy head from Vergina, which is very, very unlikely to be a sarissa head) and untapered hafts. The heavy head and untapered haft means that unless the haft is monstrously thick, it will bend a lot just past your front hand. A light head and tapered haft will greatly reduce the bending and improve the handling. 5.5m long, light head, heavy butt (about 1kg, inner socket diameter of 30mm, outer socket diameter of 34mm). The butt end of the haft would probably be the same diameter as the outer socket diameter, so 34-35mm. There were some small heads found at Vergina which are good candidates for sarissa heads. Total lengh (including socket) of 27cm, sopcket length 8cm, inner/outer socket diameter 17mm/19mm, weight about 100g. In the original description of the find, the head identified as a sarissa head was a huge thing about 1.2kg, socket of 36mm. An untapered and consequently floppy sarissa: With a haft of 35mm at the butt, and a sensible head, it's possible to make a 5.5m sarissa of about 3kg. This seems reasonable, considering that early modern pikes 5.5m long tended to be 6-7lb.
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Post by antoine99 on Dec 17, 2017 5:28:16 GMT
Lol, the way that thing drooped. Yeah I'd never use one of those, it would be pointless, I wouldn't be able to move it in my house at all
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2017 15:50:26 GMT
Here is a comparison between a dory and sarisssa.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Dec 17, 2017 18:52:48 GMT
I can see some advantages to a long spear but not that long. All your enemy has to do is push your spear to the side with his shield and move in. All you could do to stop him is to keep moving backwards. No one ever won a battle moving backwards. Bigger is not always better.
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