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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 2:45:50 GMT
Does anyone know were I can learn nijitsu in carson, ca?? I want to start trainning in kendo as well as kenjutsu but I can not find a teacher or dojo. Can someone help me in finding a dojo?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 12, 2008 17:37:37 GMT
I'm at work right now, but when I get off in a few hours I'll look it up, I know I have several references that may help. Ninjustsu is pretty awesome. there are some who will tell you that the Bujinkan Dojo and the Genbukan dojo are nearly McDojos of super-comercialisation but pay no mind to them, if you find a good dojo it is the coolest thing going in martial arts available in the USA anyway.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 12, 2008 22:02:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 23:53:08 GMT
What are these other forms? The reason why I want to start trainning in this is because of this video.
And Im a blackbelt in tae kwon do and I want to build up on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 23:54:43 GMT
I was wondering were can I also take druken boxing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 23:58:38 GMT
I'm at work right now, but when I get off in a few hours I'll look it up, I know I have several references that may help. Ninjustsu is pretty awesome. there are some who will tell you that the Bujinkan Dojo and the Genbukan dojo are nearly McDojos of super-comercialisation but pay no mind to them, if you find a good dojo it is the coolest thing going in martial arts available in the USA anyway. I'm just gonna cry 'subjective' here, since I've more than once been allowed to sit in for a class of Bujinkan at a local school. It seemed fine to me, but I prefer Aikido training (<--My opinion). And the reason a lot of people have a hard time taking Bujinkan seriously is because of the shady dealings of Masaaki Hatsuumi. I don't deny that he is an amazing martial artist... but to claim to be soke of so many different schools and then not back it up with paperwork at all even though he claims to have the records is odd. This is especially strange in Japan where they're known to be ridiculously zealous record-keepers... it just puts people in 'Beware' mode.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 13, 2008 3:24:04 GMT
regardless of the "shadiness" of his claim of soke, I don't think it is ever going to really matter to most of us. I have seen the effectiveness of what is taught in the school as I have three friends who are each 4th degree (dan) black belts and I have some training in it myself. that's also why I listed Genbukan too. since their soke also claims to be soke of some of the same schools but also doesn't produce paper work. but these are the only choices we have in the good old USA. so. . . and I agree Aikido is darned awesome. so yes subjective as hell but hey this thread is about NINJUTSU. ok and drunken boxing too. but I don't anything about that, that doesn't involve Jackie Chan. dude do a yahoo yellow pages search for kung fu. and these (below) are not other styles, they are just words associated with ninjutsu: Ninjutsu - obvious ninpo - another term for ninjutsu depending on who you listen to. taijutsu - the main principle of ninjutsu (sometimes called "budo taijutsu) bujinkan - one of the two main (read only) ninjutsu schools available to us genbukan - the other one
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 5:09:26 GMT
Of course, please don't take my comments as an attack on ninjutsu at all, just letting you know where people are coming from when you hear criticisms.
Bujinkan teachings, from those relatively few practitioners I've had the pleasure of meeting, are very very good. In fact, an amazing martial artist that I know(and went to a seminar he taught) is Julio Toribio, who is a bujinkan 10th dan(also Aikido 6th dan, and he does other stuff too, and even recodified his learnings into what's called Seibukan Jujutsu).
In any case, I just saw the phrase 'coolest thing in martial arts going on the USA' and thought, "hey... that doesn't seem like an absolute at all... more like an opinion".
Anyway, just because he's cool, Check out Julio:
This is his Aikido Nidan(second degree blackbelt) test, years and years ago:
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 13, 2008 5:31:58 GMT
I actually meant to write "one of the coolest things. . . " and you are absolutely right for calling me out on it. that Aikido video is beautiful. I've always like Aikido but never could find a dojo when I could afford the time or money to train. no art is perfect, not ninjutsu, not any form of kungfu, they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I watched an Aikido video on youtube a month or so ago where they had a master doing different Ukemi and it was one of the sweetest most fluidly beautiful things I've seen. so yes, Aikido is awesome no doubt. Please pardon my over-enthusiasm for an art I happen to be studying right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 5:53:23 GMT
Can someone explain to me all these terms and issues u guys are talking about??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 7:54:24 GMT
Ninja: which terms in particular? Drunken boxing is a shaolin kung fu specialisation so you would need to find and study shaolin kung fu for a few years before you should even begin to consider drunken boxing. Tae kwon do is nothing like ninjitsu or kung fu, kung fu is one of the harder martial arts to learn, especially shaolin kung fu, it takes years just to get to a point where you aren't just learning how to hit things.
Why are you interested in these martial arts? Have you considered Pekiti Tirsia or muay thai?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 8:45:51 GMT
'dan' means 'level' or something roughly equivalent to that. Shodan = First Level, or, 'First Degree Black Belt' as we would commonly understand it. Ni = Japanese for 'two', so 'Nidan' = 2nd degree, Sandan = 3rd degree, etc. etc.
In order: Shodan, nidan, Sandan, yondan, Godan, Rokudan, nanadan, hachidan, kudan, judan. Most martial systems stop at 10th dan, but I believe bujinkan goes up to 15th. Which brings me to another point: Generally in the US, we simply write the arabic sequential number followed by the word 'dan', i.e. "1st Dan" = Shodan.
Soke refers to one who inherits the rights of leading a martial system. Basically when the head of a school (or 'ryu') is ready to pass on his art for whatever reason, he names a person, usually his next of kin, occasionally another relative, and rarely(but not unheard of) someone non-related but most dedicated and skilled student as 'Soke'. the Soke makes all decisions and has final say for everything that has to do with the Ryu in question. Masaaki Hatsumi is the head of the Bujinkan Dojo, which teaches 9 different ryu publicly, which together constitute what he calls 'Ninjutsu' - which he has publicly stated to being higher in level than Bushido. He claims to be the Soke of each one of those 9 ryu, and as I recall, a few others as well that he keeps 'secret'.
Generally, when a person is named the new Soke, or 'next in line to be soke' by the current Soke, he presents them with a scroll that has the lineage of all the sokes, all the way back to the founder of the school. This legitimizes the new soke.
In other words, Hatsuumi has made some pretty big claims, but he won't present his scrolls even though he claims to have them. Claiming to be soke of 9 different ryuha is pretty audacious, to say the least, so it bothers people when he refuses to validate his claim.
Aikido is a different martial art that I brought up to illustrate that 'coolest' is subjective, as I think Aikido is 'coolest' whereas Ian thinks that Bujinkan is 'coolest'. Neither is wrong.
Ukemi means 'receiving' and refers to the ability to keep oneself safe whilest a technique is being applied to you. in aikido, judo, and related arts, the physical aspect of ukemi generally refers to learning how to not get shattered joints and broken limbs when being thrown or put into joint locks and so forth. on a deeper level, it relates to one's ability to not let yourself be victimized, even if someone is attacking you.
Did I miss any other terms you might not be familiar with?
Oh, and Ian - I didn't mean to put a rain on your parade either - I think it's a great thing to be really passionate about something. I just didn't want anyone getting any wrong ideas about comparing martial arts and having one be objectively 'cooler' than another.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 13, 2008 12:18:02 GMT
wow Adam that was pretty comprehensive, meaning all inclusive (ok I'm a smart-ass ;D) no need to appologise, as I said you completely within your rights. I just want to re-iterate that to 99.999% of us it shouldn't matter wether or not Hatsuumi is the legitimate soke of all those schools because he has a skill level way above all of us and can teach us some pretty awesome stuff. just for the record, in my mind this goes for Tanemura sensei too, who also claims to be soke of some of the same schools as Hatsuumi, and is the head of Genbukan. I study Bujinkan because it is what I was introduced to and what I could find available.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 17:05:03 GMT
I understand completely, but for one such as I, who believes Budo is inherently related to Truth, to be dishonest about something like that makes me want to stay away on a matter of principle.
In other words - Even if he wasn't soke of all those schools, if he simply said he wasn't and was honest about it, I would have absolutely no issue.
Maybe he *IS* soke of all those schools, which would be fantastic(probably a first in history too). I just wonder why he won't show his scrolls, and the only reason my mind can come up with, is because something isn't pat about that. Which leads me to question his character to claim something like that and not answer when called out on it.
Try practicing medicine, claiming to have a doctorate, but never letting anyone see your credentials and you'll understand a little of what I mean.
That said, I agree that he is a fantastic martial artist that 99% of the world could really learn from - you and I included no doubt.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 14, 2008 4:33:40 GMT
Yup I understand what you mean. I'm not here to defend Hatsumi Soke (maybe should be since I study his art) but let's apply this to him and Tanemura both. let's look at things not with a western, American mindset, but with a traditional Japanese mindset. now I'm neither traditional nor Japanese so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about but. . . it occurs to me that in traditional Japanese society, once a person gets to the place Hatsumi and Tanemura are it is seen as very disrespectful to question their honesty or validity. such men have proven themselves and no longer need to hang scrolls on the walls or brag about how good they are. they sit back calmly, point out something wise here and there, and that's it. you don't even approach them directly. one of my sensei (8th dan) wanted to give Hatsumi a present and approached him directly thinking that since he was 8th dan and had been training in Hatsumi's personal dojo for years this was ok. it was not. my sensei did not get yelled at our anything but hatsumi called his closest guys around him and lectured them on (i guess) the japanese equivelent of the chain of command and respect to rank and position. it was they who failed in his eyes as I understand it and this is a very traditional japanese attitude as far as I can tell. so maybe, just MAYBE there's a legitimate reason he doesn't pull out the scrolls. on a related note, when Takamatsu was soke (the last guy) I don't think anyone questioned his authenticity and he was soke of all the same schools Hatsumi is now. Takamatsu also did not have a rival (like Tanemure is to Hatsumi) who claimed the same schools. so really the only debate from what I've heard is whether Takamatsu passed the makimono (scrolls) to Tanemura or Hatsumi. unless he divided them or died without passing them then one of these two guys is indeed the soke of nine schools of martial arts. unless there is some key info I missed, which is entirely possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 9:12:46 GMT
You make an excellent point.
And I wouldn't dream of questioning Hatsumi if he didn't give me reason to - which he has. It's not about bragging or showing off your scrolls - it's about presenting yourself professionally. In all other ways Hatsumi is proper and in my opinion very impressive overall. I just don't see the point in hiding his scrolls - he doesn't need to flaunt them, just show them.
Have you ever seen the movie "Chicken Run". In it, there is a rooster(voiced by Mel Gibson) who claims to be able to fly - one of the hens even saw him(what she didn't know is that he had been shot from a cannon). He was trying to teach the hens to fly, and every time they asked for a demonstration he wouldn't do it. There was no reason for him not to - except for that he couldn't.
I see this as a fairly good analogy to Mr. Hatsumi. Again - I'm not trying to say he's a fraud in any way, just that this bugs me.
I think we can agree that he's an amazing man we could all learn from, in any case.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 2:02:45 GMT
So were should I learn Ninjitsu? Cause in my point of view I really want a real techer(meaning its not really for the money but the fact of teaching it). I live in Carson, CA(90745). For me when I started Tae Kwon Do my sensi was Grandmaster K.S. Choi and everytime he tought us me and my sis treated him like our uncle. And while I was in Tae Kwo Do it was more of a family rather than go there learn and then leave. So what schools would you guys recomend?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2008 5:15:52 GMT
despite the doubts Bloodwraith some people have about Hatsumi actually being Soke of 9 schools his Bujinkan dojo does tech ninjutsu (one I two U's by the way) and so does Genbukan dojo. you have one of each of these schools within 25-ish miles of you if I recall. since you are in america you don't have the luxury of finding a classical grass roots ninjutsu school. honestly Bujinkan and I'm sure Genbukan dojo's can teach more than you are ever likely to be able to learn.
Edit: The only way to know if you'll be happy with the sensei is to go to classes. so it's all good to want a guy who's in it for the art and not just for money but you gotta go to a dojo to make that judgement.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2008 5:32:30 GMT
Ian: I think you got the posters mixed up, it's Adam who has the doubts I just don't really like him that much but that is my own bias and probably my sensei's as well.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 19, 2008 13:50:32 GMT
OOPS! SORRY ABOUT THAT! EDIT - Post modified. I figured instead of changing it to Adam I'd say "some people" because I know he is not the only person to feel that way.
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