Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 28, 2017 1:07:50 GMT
In the sword design thread, I actually designed a triangle shaped bladed longsword. I can see that being used in the same context a bull fighters sword is used, based on how they seem to be designed.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 28, 2017 2:41:23 GMT
While a spear is the king of weapons, thats not the point in this thread, which is missed almost every single time these threads are made. If the sword isn't going to be used, whats the harm in getting a properly heat treated pallet buster? It would certainly be a great conversation starter. But just to level with you, and compromise, what about a Zwiehander? Best of both worlds, no? Spear and a sword in one almost (okay not really, but as much as a person could find anyway) There is absolutely no harm in getting "pallet buster" for fun smashing, as a conversation starter or simply because one wants to. But I firmly believe one must be aware of what it is and what it isn't. And it is not a particularly useful piece of equipment as a sword nor as a weapon for the scenario the OP is interested in. As for Zweihänder or montantes (the Albion Dane is almost in the same category really)... properly made ones are indeed very much usable, fearsome weapons and employed like a spear not the worst thing to have when facing large predators or several humans. They are a HUGE pain to lug around though and require a lot of space to use efficiently. What the OP might consider: something like an AT tac sword (possibly the Hanwei line that will soon be available) or a Ginunting (respectively other similar filipino weapon). Tough, handy, easy enough to carry around and, especially in the case of a single piece tac sword, with the added option of attaching it to the end of a pole. Tada, instant spear. Or, better yet, put a Kabar on the pole for when the bear shows up and use the short sword as a sword. As for you djinnobi: what you need is a late medieval warsword. Something like the Albion Viceroy. Powerful cutter with a stiff blade but nimble enough for more delicate blade work when required. The realier period war swords like GSoW all share comparable thin and flexible blades, the later 15th century XVIII or XX ones are usually stiffer and have a thicker base. Similar cutting and considerably better thrusting performance. Another, even more massive option would be something like the Albion Earl. Almost a full cm thick, extremely rigid hollow ground blade with plenty of blade presence as well as excellent thrusting ability. I just looked that up. That is exactly my ideal sword right there. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by bluetrain on Jun 28, 2017 11:45:26 GMT
I remember my father and someone else he was working with discussing the relative merits of a Desoto. Same thing.
I have mentioned a matador's sword before in other threads. It should be something worth discussing more, given that it is in reality a killing weapon. I've never handled one but judging from photos, they seem like fairly robust weapons, although very specialized. When the British 1908 pattern sword was being developed, they (the committee) acquired a matador's sword.
All swords are somewhat specialized, which is to say they have mostly all been intended to be used within a certain context and mostly they were. A cavalryman's saber or sword, for instance, was intended to be used from horseback, mostly. In fact, in the 20th century when cavalrymen still had sabers and horses, the sword was typically attached to the saddle, not from the man's belt. The matador's sword was highly specialized, designed to be used in a single kind of thrust and nothing else. The matador practiced and trained for that single thrust. Sometimes the bull got the better of his opponent, though it wouldn't be said the bull ever won a match.
There are a few YouTube videos of men hunting with spears, including a couple using Cold Steel boar spears to hunt wild pigs. There's also one of Sasha Seimel hunting jaguars with a spear, too. None of these are particularly encouraging as far as the effectiveness of spears.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 28, 2017 11:49:36 GMT
I started to think about a sword for hunting mammoths (of course not elephants, not even in imagination)!
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Post by bluetrain on Jun 28, 2017 12:22:25 GMT
You'd probably want a pretty big sword. You'd probably also have to do a lot of hunting, too.
Remember, the essence of "hunting" is searching for something, such as a game animal. If you don't have to do that, it's called something else. In the U.K., for instance, they use the term "stalking" and "shooting." So I guess they don't worry too much about actually finding something. That's somebody else's job.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 28, 2017 13:02:54 GMT
Interesting point of view! So I can carry f.e. a smallsword as long as I'm hunting mammoths and can honestly say: "that's my mammoth hunting sword". Very comfy! (as long as nobody clones them)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 28, 2017 13:20:53 GMT
I started to think about a sword for hunting mammoths (of course not elephants, not even in imagination)! There was a man in Africa arrested for poaching. He was using a .22 LR and had 4 or 5 elephants to his credit. The elephant would not immediately succumb to the wound and the fellow had to track for a considerable distance. He would target the area behind the front leg, timing the shot on the movement of the front leg in order to hit the heart. I would think that a good rapier blade would be longer than the penetration of a .22 so there is food for thought, and I haven’t had my first rum yet, just wait until I’ve had a shot or two and I’ll come up with some real jewels. Hehe.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 28, 2017 15:13:36 GMT
I suggest a rapier so long that you need a scope! (and support wheels, ...and a tumbler holder)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 28, 2017 18:07:47 GMT
The matador practiced and trained for that single thrust. Sometimes the bull got the better of his opponent, though it wouldn't be said the bull ever won a match. There was a tourist, who I’ll call Bob, in Mexico. While Bob exploring Mexico City he realized that he was hungry and spotted a restaurant that appeared to be above average. On entering he was greeted by a waiter who seated and gave him a menu. Now Bob could barely say enough Spanish words to tell a cabby where he wanted to go and find a bath room, not much more, much less read Spanish so all he could do was to look at the menu. Not to appear too dumb he pointed to the adjacent table where a man had a scrumptious meal laid out before him and indicated to the waiter that he would have the same. The waiter explained that there was no more and what the man was eating were the testicles from the bull killed earlier in the arena. That the restaurant had an arrangement with the arena whereby they would receive the testicles before the bull was carted off to a meat processing plant so the testicles were in limited supply. And if Bob would return to the restaurant the following Saturday about an hour earlier he would be served. That dish was very much on his mind all week and sure enough Bob arrived at the restaurant an hour earlier the next Saturday and was greeted by the same waiter. The waited seated Bob saying that he recognized him and knew the reason that he had returned. Some long minutes later the returned with what looked like a child’s plate of something, nothing like he had seen Saturday. Bob called the waiter back, pointed to the small plate and complained that wasn’t what the other man was eating the previous week and that was what he wanted. The waiter simply shrugged his shoulder saying “sometimes the matador wins, sometimes the bull wins”.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 18:26:58 GMT
Note: This will be a work in progress comment as I go back and forth reading and commenting.
Interesting and fun reading! Thanks for everyone taking the time to comment. Most of the comments could be construed to be life saving advice. Again, thanks for making the effort.
Djinnobi - You understand the thread scenario better than me. Thanks for clarifying my intent throughout entire thread. As you and I know, there was a recent example of a man using a samurai sword to survive a bear attack. Yet, some were killed by a bear while holding their gun. It's all relative.
Andi - Thanks for helpful sword sources and funny comments. Does my Batman cape count?
Faldarin - Yes, If I had a choice of weapon, against a bear, I would not choose a sword. I would choose my HK 91, semi auto rifle, in .308 with 20 round magazines or my Vepr 12 shotgun, semi auto with slugs in 10 round magazines.
bluetrain - True, an arming sword would have a very sharp tip for thrusting. I have always liked arming sword blades. However, they are short and only have one hand handles.
Lukas - Point well taken. A well designed sword is more effective than a sharp crowbar. Thanks for detailed comments. However, my concern is that all these designs have evolved throughout history for combat against sword wielding humans exclusively. Yes, throughout history until firearms, the spear ruled the battlefields, not the sword. However, the spear was not a choice in the scenario. Only a sword. Thanks for sword ideals as well. However, I could never treat an Albion sword as a tire iron.
Zenhydra - Thanks for sword ideals. However, I could never treat high end swords like a tire iron or crowbar in the trunk of my car. Nice point about the matador sword. However, I would want more combat options than just thrusting since a sword is relatively short. As Djinnobi has tried to explain, I am not wanting a sword literally as heavy as a crowbar. Yes, I want it heavy in the context of a rapier vs Viking sword weight. I used the term crowbar to mean, heavy for a sword, durable, and usable. If it was so heavy, it hurt my back or it I could not swing it to save my life, it could get me killed.
Markusagain - Thanks for comments. I would "trust" no weapon against a charging grizzly. Even experience bear guides get killed.
Pgandy - Haha! That joke reminds me of one of our Harley ride stops, the Big Texan in Amarillo, Texas. On the menu are "Mountain Oysters". I have never ate them, because they are bull testicles! Haha!
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 18:45:40 GMT
In the sword design thread, I actually designed a triangle shaped bladed longsword. I can see that being used in the same context a bull fighters sword is used, based on how they seem to be designed. Like a Rondel or a stiletto? That'd be awesome as a Longsword! I know a "swordbreaker" (or at least the Cold Steel version is) is designed similarly supported by a thick blade.....3-edged or not.
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 18:47:03 GMT
Note: This will be a work in progress comment as I go back and forth reading and commenting. Interesting and fun reading! Thanks for everyone taking the time to comment. Djinnobi - You understand the thread scenario better than me. Thanks for clarifying my intent. Andi - Thanks for helpful sword sources and funny comments. Faldarin - Yes, If I had a choice of weapon, against a bear, I would choose my HK 91, semi auto rifle, in .308 with a 20 round magazines. Yeah I'd use my PTR-91 also....or a 10 gauge shottie!
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 18:49:33 GMT
I suggest a rapier so long that you need a scope! (and support wheels, ...and a tumbler holder) Oh and a Sig-brace Andi, with about six large marines standing behind as support backup!
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Post by Faldarin on Jun 28, 2017 19:02:35 GMT
Faldarin - Yes, If I had a choice of weapon, against a bear, I would choose my HK 91, semi auto rifle, in .308 with a 20 round magazines. You, sir, are a man of wealth and taste - as I originally thought. Ahem! But on the point of the original question - I still haven't stumbled across any production pieces that are near what you want, even after looking for a bit. There might not be a lot of custom people who would be able to temper a blade of that size and thickness all that well either. I still second the discussion of Lonely Wolf Forge - I'm unsure too many of the smaller custom makers would be able to, you might have to go higher end.
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 19:24:58 GMT
If you had no firearm or ran out of ammo and were hiking or biking a trail, or in a tent/RV or on the side of a remote highway with auto failure, and you are confronted with an attacking wild beast or a psycho, what kind of sword would you want, to defend yourself and family? I know what I would want. I want a razor sharp "crowbar" of a sword! Haha! A sword constructed of a single slab of thick spring steel with the blade, guard, and handle being one solid piece. The 2 handed handle would have at most some kind of cord wrap . The blade would be 36 inches (91.44 cm) long, thick, wide, double edged, with a fuller. Blade width would serve as hand guard. It would be double edged because two (2) blades are better than one (1) in the Badlands. I want it razor sharp because I may only get one chance at a thrust or swing. I want it long because it may be a bear or a real life huge psycho like Michael Myers from Halloween. The sword would be rust resistant coated. It would look like a "tactical" Viking sword. Assuming the bear or mountain lion or psycho, is not trained and armed with a sword, I want a long, heavy and sharp blade for thrusting and slashing.hehe! Scabbard would be made of some kind of nylon. It would be the kind of sword that you could strap on your back or put in the trunk and forget it until you need it. No need to worry about constant care as it would be as tuff as a sharpened crowbar or tire lug nut wrench. I can not find such a sword. I see many nice yet short and or narrow and or thin tactical swords, but nothing as I described. Does anyone know of a cost effect source for a "tactical" Viking sword? If not, I will submit a design to a forge. Thanks. You want to buy my Ronin Viking sword Blade? My hands are too big and it chafes my wrist 😕
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 28, 2017 19:30:35 GMT
Lukas - Point taken. A well designed sword is more effective than a sharp crowbar. However, my concern is that all these designs have evolved throughout history for combat against sword wielding humans exclusively. Yes, throughout history until firearms, the spear ruled the battlefields, not the sword. However, the spear was not a choice in the scenario. Only a sword. Not only sword-wielding humans. Humans in general, really, no matter if armed or not. Preferably un-armored but not necessarily. Many (most) sword designs work quite well against other cqc weapons, not just against swords (some exceptions like the smallsword nonwithstanding). I do believe that a well-made sword is pretty much the perfect sidearm for hand-to-hand combat as long as little or no armor is involved. It beats axes, maces, clubs, etc by a long shot. Proper training provided of course.
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 19:36:54 GMT
I was going to say the same thing! Last night ramses1079 talked about bacon and now at noon, djinnobi brings up steak and beef jerky. I got to get some serious food! With Andi and Djinnobi talking about using an existing blade, I researched it. Got it. Bare blades/blanks. Would go to Albion, Kult of Athena and Darksword first, but tangs are not big enough to be the handle. With some sources, you can get tempered and custom sword blades (handle size tangs), ready for a handle cord wrap and sharpening. I am contacting Baltimore Knife and Sword and Odin Blades first. See links below makeyoursword.weebly.com/sword-bare-blades.htmlActually I was saying I coat my sword blades with bacon grease as a "preservative" because it unnerves opponents to see your foe licking his sword over and over like a steel lollipop......but what I said would ATTRACT all manner of wildlife. Not the best choice in this scenario. I NEVER start a sentence with "I have a Cold Steel, anything" BUT my Cold Steel Longsword (the black one, I'm not THAT rich) would be a good choice! Or Darksword Armory has a two-handed Viking...or Dane....sword. NOT going to suggest Albion for ANYTHING physical......It'd be like using a Ferrari instead of a baseball bat to hit something (bear, moose, etc). A good 10gauge shotgun will kill ANYTHING on this planet.
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Ramses1079
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Post by Ramses1079 on Jun 28, 2017 19:39:23 GMT
Lukas - Point taken. A well designed sword is more effective than a sharp crowbar. However, my concern is that all these designs have evolved throughout history for combat against sword wielding humans exclusively. Yes, throughout history until firearms, the spear ruled the battlefields, not the sword. However, the spear was not a choice in the scenario. Only a sword. Not only sword-wielding humans. Humans in general, really, no matter if armed or not. Preferably un-armored but not necessarily. Many (most) sword designs work quite well against other cqc weapons, not just against swords (some exceptions like the smallsword nonwithstanding). I do believe that a well-made sword is pretty much the perfect sidearm for hand-to-hand combat as long as little or no armor is involved. It beats axes, maces, clubs, etc by a long shot. Proper training provided of course. Hi Lukas, not to butt in......I think a gladius is the perfect cqc sword!
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 28, 2017 20:24:32 GMT
A gladius wouldn't be a bad choice, true. It wouldn't be my first choice because as a stand-alone weapon, it is a bit lacking compared to other swords (especially as far as hand protection is concerned) because it was never really intended to be used alone but with a scutum. The same goes for a regular medieval arming sword or a viking era sword, really. Both are originally intended to be used with a buckler or shield.
Longswords, Messer (as in Lange Messer) or sabres on the other hand are stand-alone weapons and their fighting style is built around that. That's why I'd prefer one of these. But I'm getting of course here ;)
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Post by bluetrain on Jun 28, 2017 20:27:00 GMT
The gladius was used in conjunction with a shield and with a line of other soldiers armed the same way. They also used a certain kind of spear but supposedly it was thrown at the enemy in the initial assault. It's very hard to take a single weapon out of context and make it an all-purpose weapon.
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