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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 27, 2017 17:15:36 GMT
Now I'm hungry and want a new sword too!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 17:39:25 GMT
I was going to say the same thing! Last night ramses1079 talked about bacon and now at noon, djinnobi brings up steak and beef jerky. I got to get some serious food! With Andi and Djinnobi talking about using an existing blade, I researched it. Got it. Bare blades/blanks. Would go to Albion, Kult of Athena and Darksword first, but tangs are not big enough to be the handle. With some sources, you can get tempered and custom sword blades (handle size tangs), ready for a handle cord wrap and sharpening. I am contacting Baltimore Knife and Sword and Odin Blades first. See links below makeyoursword.weebly.com/sword-bare-blades.html
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Post by bluetrain on Jun 27, 2017 17:42:53 GMT
Interesting topic. I think I'd pick something like a late medieval arming sword, which is more or less a dedicated thrusting sword, some being more so than others. The Cold Steel version is a pretty good variation, I think. At 28 inches, though, it isn't as long as some would like. But it's (supposedly) sharp and even a thrusting sword should be sharp, the better to pierce.
I personally don't think you'll get anywhere slashing at a bear and for that matter, maybe not at thrusting, either. Yet there is a sword especially made for killing large animals, the matador's sword. They have what are basically smallsword blades. Mind you, matadors train for that moment with good instruction. Don't try that at home. But it should be taken as a realistic viewpoint on the subject.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 27, 2017 18:01:19 GMT
I also think the least letal way for yourself to kill a big animal is a thrust. There existed so called "Boar Swords", long estocs with a spear head. Together with a red cape... And you can roast the animal on it...
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Post by Faldarin on Jun 27, 2017 18:06:21 GMT
I'm saying I wouldn't want a sword of ANY kind against a bear. I wouldn't want to fight a bear, but if I had no choice? I'd want a spear, or something else. Against a human opponent who was not a trained fighter, I'd probably also want a spear, staff, or a heavy war club if I was carrying a 'dedicated' weapon. Swords are awesome. I love them. They're obviously the reason I -am- interested in HEMA... but I don't think HEMA training would ever help me in real life other than exercise, even in a hypothetical end of the world scenario. I just don't think ANY kind of sword is the best idea in a survival or 'badlands' situation. Look at Lucille from The Walking Dead. But this thread is about awesome ideas, not practicality at all. Sorry I didn't think of Lonely Wolf Forge. He would potentially be able to do something for you - he often does the type of construction you're looking for. I don't think he does it - but you might want to see if anyone out there does kydex-style sheaths, like Zombie Tools does. That would satisfy your durability requirements.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 27, 2017 18:06:52 GMT
Interesting topic. I think I'd pick something like a late medieval arming sword, which is more or less a dedicated thrusting sword, some being more so than others. The Cold Steel version is a pretty good variation, I think. At 28 inches, though, it isn't as long as some would like. But it's (supposedly) sharp and even a thrusting sword should be sharp, the better to pierce. I personally don't think you'll get anywhere slashing at a bear and for that matter, maybe not at thrusting, either. Yet there is a sword especially made for killing large animals, the matador's sword. They have what are basically smallsword blades. Mind you, matadors train for that moment with good instruction. Don't try that at home. But it should be taken as a realistic viewpoint on the subject. Damn. First time I ever been taken out of my bubble excellent point. I wouldn't use slashing, per say, as much as I would chopping. Chopping with a leaf blade would be More for deterring, saw if they lunge with a bite, or have exposed bits. But a thrust would probably still be better
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Post by Faldarin on Jun 27, 2017 18:40:44 GMT
But this thread is about awesome ideas, not practicality at all. Also saying - if EVERYTHING/most things here were about practicality, talking about this whole site (not just this topic)... I doubt any of us would be here except maybe the gun and knife guys.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 27, 2017 18:46:11 GMT
Sigh... a sword, no matter what kind, is wholly unsuitable to face a bear (or any large predator) with. Too damn short. There is a reason spears and ranged weapons were used to hunt these animals. And you most certainly don't want to cut or chop at them. You will need to pierce deeply into the animal, no blow you can strike, no matter with what sword can be relied to sufficiently wound and incapacitate a large predator. That being said, occasionally swords were apparently used in hunting, it was a way of training for war. Period art shows it at least (like a knight on his horse attacking a wild boar with a sword). And guess what, they used their normal swords for that.
This isn't a decision between getting a smallsword or an axe-like blade. There are plenty of historical, "proper" sword designs that are intended to shrug off hard use. A thick-spined XVIII or XVII will give you plenty of durability and a very substantial power transfer in a cut, without handling like a ton of bricks. Check out the Albion Svante for an example. Or the Albion Dane. A large Kriegsmesser would be another option (Albion Knecht). All these are massive blades but they still display proper mass distribution and therefore can be used efficiently. You cannot do that nearly as well or at all with what you seem to be imagining (a leaf blade without any distal taper, or a two-handed viking sword).
Btw, 1/4" is not thick at all, really. Most katana are thicker, as are many longswords. Some late medieval blades can be up to a full cm thick, as are most later sabres. This requires good distal taper and an understanding of mass distribution to do well of course.
My point is: the desire to have a heavy-hitting, stiff and durable sword is not new. Such blades were often used in military context, lighter weapons being preferred for civilian use. Some designs were popular for both. But, all these weapons have in common that they are made to handle and perform like swords. Can you not see that for you they offer the best of both worlds? You get the durability and power you desire without sacrificing as much in the handling department. These weapons can be fenced with (all actual swords need to allow for that) and retain the feeling of strength and irresistible power that you want.
This has nothing to do with HEMA elitism. If you're training JSA or whatever style, I believe the same thing would apply. Swords cannot be improved by doing what you're thinking. They cannot be pressed into service as anything else than they were originally intended. Not without seriously hampering their abilities anyway. Swords are at their most useful for one purpose only and that is fighting other humans (armed or unarmed). Trying to change them to fulfill other roles (like defending against bears) leads to an inferior product whose role would be much better filled with something else (a spear. Or a torch). If you have nothing else, of course a sword will be better than nothing in many situations. But if you expect to only rarely if ever encounter situations where a sword would be at its peak of usefulness (fighting humans), but instead expect to more often face large animals (or whatever), bring something better suited to that task.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 27, 2017 18:56:45 GMT
True!
Can anyone start a new "Best heavy cutter for the Zombie Acopalypse"-thread (I did my duty with the civilisation breakdown thread already).
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Post by bluetrain on Jun 27, 2017 19:04:27 GMT
Fair enough but the topic of the thread was about swords, in fact, a particular sword that I'm not familiar with, not having seen the movie.
There are lots of effective swords, some of which are as different as day and night, excluding those which were intended only for ceremonial or decorative purposes. But they all existed in a specific tactical context and presumably worked best only under those conditions. Some were introduced which seem to have been poor choices but they were out there just the same. I'd say many sword carriers (like spear carriers) had little choice as to what they got to carry, just like the army today. It would have been terrible to have been killed by an inferior weapon wielded by an inferior foe who was probably from the lower classes. Probably would have just been bad luck more than anything.
Well, then, you'd have to visualize your tactical context first and then go from there. You might have to do some experimentation and dry runs. Just like for a gun, it's going to be just carried most of the time, so it has to be convenient to carry. A gun has to be mechanically sound; a sword has to be sharp.
I'd say it might be possible to deliver a decisive chopping or slashing blow with a sword against a large animal, although "large" is elastic. Don't try this in Alaska. Some swords, possibly the Japanese sword best of all, are well suited for that except that it takes extreme dedication, skill and coolness. In other words, it wouldn't be easy. But then, what is?
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 27, 2017 19:05:21 GMT
I would consider something like the Albion ArchDuke for a large sword to maximize 'stopping power.' It has good reach, balance, heft, and durability, while still functioning as a sword.
Let's face facts, there are almost no real-world situations where a sword is going to outperform a firearm in combat (there are always corner cases).
If you are actually going to spend money pursuing a solution to an entirely unrealistic problem, then said solution should at least be fun to play with. A well made sword is always going to be more fun than a clunky SLO. If you want to swing a crowbar around, go get one from the hardware store.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 27, 2017 19:11:17 GMT
You guys ever try hit a hard target with a thin sword? Friggen thing bounces around. "with proper edge alignment" you guys might say, but against a charging animal with a thick skull, good luck. Have you ever seen the swords matadors use to deliver the killing blow to a bull? Robust is not a word I would use to describe them. Also, why would you target the skull of an animal like a bear (or bull)? There are easier ways to commit suicide.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 27, 2017 19:21:14 GMT
You guys ever try hit a hard target with a thin sword? Friggen thing bounces around. "with proper edge alignment" you guys might say, but against a charging animal with a thick skull, good luck. Have you ever seen the swords matadors use to deliver the killing blow to a bull? Robust is not a word I would use to describe them. Also, why would you target the skull of an animal like a bear (or bull)? There are easier ways to commit suicide. It wouldn't be my main target, but the situation is is unpredictable. If it lunges, i wanna try deter its lunge. It would be a defense move, that hopefully has an injuring effect
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 27, 2017 19:21:54 GMT
I would consider something like the Albion ArchDuke for a large sword to maximize 'stopping power.' It has good reach, balance, heft, and durability, while still functioning as a sword. Let's face facts, there are almost no real-world situations where a sword is going to outperform a firearm in combat (there are always corner cases). If you are actually going to spend money pursuing a solution to an entirely unrealistic problem, then said solution should at least be fun to play with. A well made sword is always going to be more fun than a clunky SLO. If you want to swing a crowbar around, go get one from the hardware store. Why can't a person have both? Also, just because you call it a crowbar doesn't mean it is a crowbar. A crowbar cannot cut. Sharpening it wouldn't make it a very good cutter either.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 27, 2017 19:54:08 GMT
Sigh... a sword, no matter what kind, is wholly unsuitable to face a bear (or any large predator) with. Too damn short. There is a reason spears and ranged weapons were used to hunt these animals. And you most certainly don't want to cut or chop at them. You will need to pierce deeply into the animal, no blow you can strike, no matter with what sword can be relied to sufficiently wound and incapacitate a large predator. That being said, occasionally swords were apparently used in hunting, it was a way of training for war. Period art shows it at least (like a knight on his horse attacking a wild boar with a sword). And guess what, they used their normal swords for that. This isn't a decision between getting a smallsword or an axe-like blade. There are plenty of historical, "proper" sword designs that are intended to shrug off hard use. A thick-spined XVIII or XVII will give you plenty of durability and a very substantial power transfer in a cut, without handling like a ton of bricks. Check out the Albion Svante for an example. Or the Albion Dane. A large Kriegsmesser would be another option (Albion Knecht). All these are massive blades but they still display proper mass distribution and therefore can be used efficiently. You cannot do that nearly as well or at all with what you seem to be imagining (a leaf blade without any distal taper, or a two-handed viking sword). Btw, 1/4" is not thick at all, really. Most katana are thicker, as are many longswords. Some late medieval blades can be up to a full cm thick, as are most later sabres. This requires good distal taper and an understanding of mass distribution to do well of course. My point is: the desire to have a heavy-hitting, stiff and durable sword is not new. Such blades were often used in military context, lighter weapons being preferred for civilian use. Some designs were popular for both. But, all these weapons have in common that they are made to handle and perform like swords. Can you not see that for you they offer the best of both worlds? You get the durability and power you desire without sacrificing as much in the handling department. These weapons can be fenced with (all actual swords need to allow for that) and retain the feeling of strength and irresistible power that you want. This has nothing to do with HEMA elitism. If you're training JSA or whatever style, I believe the same thing would apply. Swords cannot be improved by doing what you're thinking. They cannot be pressed into service as anything else than they were originally intended. Not without seriously hampering their abilities anyway. Swords are at their most useful for one purpose only and that is fighting other humans (armed or unarmed). Trying to change them to fulfill other roles (like defending against bears) leads to an inferior product whose role would be much better filled with something else (a spear. Or a torch). If you have nothing else, of course a sword will be better than nothing in many situations. But if you expect to only rarely if ever encounter situations where a sword would be at its peak of usefulness (fighting humans), but instead expect to more often face large animals (or whatever), bring something better suited to that task. Oops, I meant 1/2" thick. But excellent points. Very useful input. The Chinese Military saber has always been a favorite design of mine, so its neat that you mention it. It would be amazing for close quarters, but something larger would be preferable for distance. While a spear is the king of weapons, thats not the point in this thread, which is missed almost every single time these threads are made. If the sword isn't going to be used, whats the harm in getting a properly heat treated pallet buster? It would certainly be a great conversation starter. But just to level with you, and compromise, what about a Zwiehander? Best of both worlds, no? Spear and a sword in one almost (okay not really, but as much as a person could find anyway)
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 27, 2017 19:57:17 GMT
Why can't a person have both? This whole discussion reminds me of my CS 1917 saber. Sharpened crowbar by definition. HEAVY hitter. Loved it and would still if I still had it, despite of being on a wholly different train with my spadroon love - regarding "fencible" swords. Would I`ve trusted the 1917 saber for "bear/boar defense"? No. Not even my assegai. Thank you for your input. I too enjoy heavy swords. I like heavy things. Heavy guitars, for example. I would love a heavy sword. It is the one thing I liked about my Cheness. I even enjoy my GSOW, but would prefer it to be thicker. If the thicker sword isn't too fun to wield, my GSOW isn't going anywhere and will be right there for my use
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 27, 2017 20:33:14 GMT
While a spear is the king of weapons, thats not the point in this thread, which is missed almost every single time these threads are made. If the sword isn't going to be used, whats the harm in getting a properly heat treated pallet buster? It would certainly be a great conversation starter. But just to level with you, and compromise, what about a Zwiehander? Best of both worlds, no? Spear and a sword in one almost (okay not really, but as much as a person could find anyway) There is absolutely no harm in getting "pallet buster" for fun smashing, as a conversation starter or simply because one wants to. But I firmly believe one must be aware of what it is and what it isn't. And it is not a particularly useful piece of equipment as a sword nor as a weapon for the scenario the OP is interested in. As for Zweihänder or montantes (the Albion Dane is almost in the same category really)... properly made ones are indeed very much usable, fearsome weapons and employed like a spear not the worst thing to have when facing large predators or several humans. They are a HUGE pain to lug around though and require a lot of space to use efficiently. What the OP might consider: something like an AT tac sword (possibly the Hanwei line that will soon be available) or a Ginunting (respectively other similar filipino weapon). Tough, handy, easy enough to carry around and, especially in the case of a single piece tac sword, with the added option of attaching it to the end of a pole. Tada, instant spear. Or, better yet, put a Kabar on the pole for when the bear shows up and use the short sword as a sword. As for you djinnobi: what you need is a late medieval warsword. Something like the Albion Viceroy. Powerful cutter with a stiff blade but nimble enough for more delicate blade work when required. The realier period war swords like GSoW all share comparable thin and flexible blades, the later 15th century XVIII or XX ones are usually stiffer and have a thicker base. Similar cutting and considerably better thrusting performance. Another, even more massive option would be something like the Albion Earl. Almost a full cm thick, extremely rigid hollow ground blade with plenty of blade presence as well as excellent thrusting ability.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 21:15:15 GMT
Wow, so many interesting comments to read. Thanks everyone. I will comment soon...hehe...eh
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 27, 2017 21:29:15 GMT
The "Best sword for a hypothetic situation" threads are like catnip for us!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 27, 2017 22:13:30 GMT
You guys ever try hit a hard target with a thin sword? Friggen thing bounces around. "with proper edge alignment" you guys might say, but against a charging animal with a thick skull, good luck. Have you ever seen the swords matadors use to deliver the killing blow to a bull? Robust is not a word I would use to describe them. Also, why would you target the skull of an animal like a bear (or bull)? There are easier ways to commit suicide. Espalda de matar toros (bull killing swords) have rarely, if ever, been mentioned on the form. Keep in mind the matador does not walk into the ring and after a some graceful dodges of the bull walk over retrieves a sword and gives point whereby the bull falls down. He is accompanied by about a half dozen “assistants”. There are two picadors on horseback with lances. There are several banderilleros that use short barbed sticks with a flag attached. All of which work over the bull throughly thereby exhausting and weakening the bull before the matador gives point. Our bull fights are not given in the traditional style and I love them. Here is one source for the sword used. Beware there is a souvenir sword model for 89€, probably not for a forum member. www.espadasartesanales.com/Espadas/Espadas-toreros.php
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