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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 1:53:37 GMT
Do the JSA's feature a move akin to the "squinter" as shown in the video? That would be interesting to see. Obviously there are no absolutes. That was my point. I was responding to Jammer's position that a cut from the right shoulder at an angle could always be countered by a kind of long point (at least that's how I read it). I pointed out that in the Verse there is a known counter to such a technique. It doesn't always work. Esp. not for mere mortals who don't have Jake's speed and skill. I'm not sure, but it seems similar enough to a technique I've worked on where the blades are parallel and one is rotated 90 degrees to kick the other's point offline. That seems to be what the fellows in the video are essentially doing if I am looking at it correctly. I think he (jammer) was overstating. If you're dealing with a timid soul they will definitely be startled and perturbed by pointing the tip of a sword at their face, but if you count on that response it may be troublesome. You need to have something backing it up, because what are you going to do if they dont follow the script and fold under the fear of your scary tip / kissaki and press in anyway?
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 19:21:12 GMT
You seem to be describing countering the oberhau from right vom tag with a somewhat reserved longpoint. That's a fine move (provided you cover your exposed left high quadrant by rising with your thrust into an extended left ochs), but as with any other it has counters. The person cutting from RVT can change to a shielhau or some other counter to longpoint. Here is Jake Norwood explaining some permutations of this master cut: Of course you don't have the thumb grip or the short edge in JSA. Or a crossguard. But Lindy was discussing longswords, albeit rather crudely. So I think you are at cross-purposes here. This video is just a load of (from the shoulder) kesa cuts. The point im making is that these exact sort of cuts don't work as an initial attack, they are too easy to defend and counter against. And this is amply demonstrated by this video. Im somewht at a loss for words tbh, confused as to whether you agree with my basic point or not?
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 13, 2017 19:31:49 GMT
The video demonstrates a classic counter from Liechtenauer's verse to an opponent in longpoint. I'm not sure how you take that as being "just a load of ... kesa cuts." The cut from the right shoulder is the paradigm cut from German longsword. If the opponent reaches the center first or counters your cut in some other way, you flow into master cuts or other options. Most of which end up creating some version of edge-on-edge binding which was Lindy's original point. No cut or thrust is magic. Every single one has counters to it, and counters to those counters. To say you must never cut from the right shoulder because there's a counter to it is nonsense, at least in the German system. There's a counter to EVERYTHING. And a counter to every counter. Also your sword must come from somewhere. This was recognized in the German systems as far back as I.33 in 1320. So saying you shouldn't cut from the right shoulder into the center is as weird as saying you shouldn't ever cut from your left hip. Some are going to be stronger or weaker depending on circumstances, but all play a role and all are necessary. So you have to learn to make all cuts from all guards.
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 20:03:41 GMT
Cosmoline, i can say with some confidence, that whatever medieval swordsmanship looked like, it did not look like that video..
The cuts are too easy to defend, and the guy in the chudan guard just thrusts thin air instead of simply raiding his tip, which is the most basic defence, and indeed the very raison detre of chudan as a guard.
Chudan is the middle guard, swordpointed forward guard, for clarity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 20:06:47 GMT
By that reasoning, what does work as an initial attack?
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 20:16:19 GMT
By that reasoning, what does work as an initial attack? Normally, a cut straight down the centre, onto the head. This forces the opponent to raise his sword hilt to get the sword blade horizontal, which makes a counter less likely, and impossible back down the centre. Which means the sword, if it is cominng as a direct counter, will be coming from either the right or left side (depending) as a kesa cut, which is easier to defend, and maintain an initaitve.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 20:19:38 GMT
By that reasoning, what does work as an initial attack? Normally, a cut straight down the centre, onto the head. This forces the opponent to raise his sword hilt to get the sword blade horizontal, which makes a counter less likely, and impossible back down the centre. Which means the sword, if it is cominng as a direct counter, will be coming from either the right or left side (depending) as a kesa cut, which is easier to defend, and maintain an initaitve. Isnt that the very first cut anyone learns to counter? You're describing men giri, its swordsmanship 101 It doesnt force any such thing. I can step sideways, vacating the precious centerline, and counter with literally anything. I can drop my sword and kick him in the knee or do whatever I want..
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 20:37:34 GMT
Normally, a cut straight down the centre, onto the head. This forces the opponent to raise his sword hilt to get the sword blade horizontal, which makes a counter less likely, and impossible back down the centre. Which means the sword, if it is cominng as a direct counter, will be coming from either the right or left side (depending) as a kesa cut, which is easier to defend, and maintain an initaitve. Isnt that the very first cut anyone learns to counter? You're describing men giri, its swordsmanship 101 It doesnt force any such thing. I can step sideways, vacating the precious centerline, and counter with literally anything. I can drop my sword and kick him in the knee or do whatever I want.. Of course, and all good swordsmanship is based on techniques that allow one to take back the initiative from a centre down cut as the first strike, often even going so farvss to invite it. This is percisely my point.
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 13, 2017 20:40:45 GMT
Cosmoline, i can say with some confidence, that whatever medieval swordsmanship looked like, it did not look like that video.. The cuts are too easy to defend, and the guy in the chudan guard just thrusts thin air instead of simply raiding his tip, which is the most basic defence, and indeed the very raison detre of chudan as a guard. Chudan is the middle guard, swordpointed forward guard, for clarity. What's the basis for your position? Jake's position is based on his interpretation of the squinter as described in the zettle and illustrated in various sources. Not for the first time, you seem to be arguing that your own personal understanding of JSA is a better interpretation of medieval European sword fighting than people actually working with those sources for decades. I think you're really reaching further than you could possibly grasp here. Is it a cultural arrogance or something that Japanese swordsmanship is the definition of swordsmanship for all time and all cultures? I remember you also claimed that JSA masters were experts at I.33 sword and buckler. In spite of having neither arming swords nor bucklers nor having interpreted I.33
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 20:42:37 GMT
I guess I just don't understand why you are taking issue with any of these guys stretching back to Mr. Beige, then. Its a cut, he's not doing anything profound but it isn't inherently better or worse than any other one.
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 21:04:39 GMT
Well, whats so cool about the sheer simplicity of my point is that anyone can try it out for themselves, and pepsi challenge the various ideas. Noone should take my word for it.
Maybe get someone to strike them as fast as they can from an angle, and try to defend and counter Then get them to strike as fast as they can straight down the centre and try to defend and counter.
Anyone can decide themselves, with a simple experiment, which they prefer as an attacking strategy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 21:09:44 GMT
Thrust is faster than cut, so throw away all cuts and now we're musketeers
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 21:18:05 GMT
Cosmoline, i can say with some confidence, that whatever medieval swordsmanship looked like, it did not look like that video.. The cuts are too easy to defend, and the guy in the chudan guard just thrusts thin air instead of simply raiding his tip, which is the most basic defence, and indeed the very raison detre of chudan as a guard. Chudan is the middle guard, swordpointed forward guard, for clarity. What's the basis for your position? Jake's position is based on his interpretation of the squinter as described in the zettle and illustrated in various sources. Not for the first time, you seem to be arguing that your own personal understanding of JSA is a better interpretation of medieval European sword fighting than people actually working with those sources for decades. I think you're really reaching further than you could possibly grasp here. Is it a cultural arrogance or something that Japanese swordsmanship is the definition of swordsmanship for all time and all cultures? I remember you also claimed that JSA masters were experts at I.33 sword and buckler. In spite of having neither arming swords nor bucklers nor having interpreted I.33 Well, what majes jake so well placed to form the basis of an appeal to authority argument? I encourage any readers that havent dozed off to experiment for themselves, not take my word for it. They could, if they felt like checking, peruse every demonstration of intact swordsmanship that biases towards cutting to see if any of them advocate your and jakes stance. They will find the weight of that eviednce on my side too, but tjis should only serve to bulwark the lessons from their own practice.not ablind appeal to popularity.
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 21:22:04 GMT
Thrust is faster than cut, so throw away all cuts and now we're musketeers If LB video related to thrusting i would have conceded, and taken it as gospel, as my knowledge of thrusting is highly limited. I fully accept this, lungeing is even moer of a mystery.
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 13, 2017 21:31:02 GMT
If you're going to criticize his position on the sources as shown in the video, you should probably offer some counter support beyond your own personal understanding of JSA. Your position seems to be that because you were taught that the high cut downwards is the best cut, everyone else must be wrong even on the other side of the world with very different types of weapons in a different tradition.
Case in point:
I don't know JSA so I don't know if what you say is true in that context. I leave that to others. But Lindy was, again, using a longsword. And if I cut from high vom tag (above the head) straight down, the opponent can counter with a kron and then a zwechhau or a winden or other things. No cut is perfect. Every cut has a counter.
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Post by jammer on Apr 13, 2017 21:41:56 GMT
This last video helps my cause no? the hero gets potentially killed loads more times in this video than the naff over-the-shoulder cut
I do wish the attacker would kerp striking rather than gormlessly thrusting air, but i see lots more going on for the attacker in this vid than the last one
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 13, 2017 21:55:00 GMT
Those are a few longsword counters to high vom tag cuts to the head. Responding to your post that "a cut straight down the centre, onto the head" normally works as a first attack. It CAN work, just as a cut from the right shoulder can work. But it has counters. There is no inherently superior position in sword fighting, at least in the German systems I am familiar with. It's purely situational, and it shifts from moment to moment. A strong position one moment can be useless the next. So dismissing angled cuts from the right shoulder as always bad makes little sense. They can be foolish, or they can work well. Even the mittlehau, the most exposed of them all, can be entirely appropriate in some situations.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 13, 2017 22:59:07 GMT
I don't assume that a first attack will work against a good opponent, without prior deception. The first attack will force the opponent to react, and their reaction can be exploited so that the second attack has a good chance of success.
In this context, the angled cut has two advantages over the straight-down cut: (a) you can better predict what your opponent will do defensively, so you can change to your second attack sooner, and (b) the opponent tends to cover the side you are attacking on well, and expose their other side.
I find that straight down onto the head from high guard is a lovely attack when I have a significant reach advantage. You need to respond to what you opponent does with less pre-planning (since they have many available responses), so it isn't as simple as a diagonal attack. Without a significant reach advantage, I usually prefer a low guard (or middle).
(Sometimes, it even works as an initial attack. Once, my training partner's brain froze up trying to choose between the different responses. It turns out that a poor response is probably better than no response. Bonk!)
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Post by Derzis on Apr 14, 2017 14:39:56 GMT
By that reasoning, what does work as an initial attack? This is the question japanese answered : you don't attack first. They knew that attacking has a weakness and they based their entire fighting (duelling not on battlefield or against multiple opponents) philosophy on it. It works anything or nothing - it depends on too many things far beyond technical aspect to have an easy answer.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Apr 14, 2017 16:53:20 GMT
This is the question japanese answered : you don't attack first. Which is why every JSA fight is two dudes standing around until someone get bored and leaves.
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