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Post by jammer on Mar 16, 2017 20:06:44 GMT
Hi, im responding here because this is where I post, and I have no other outlet, so please forgive my venting.
I was so infruriated when I saw this video.
BY LINDY BEIGE.
On the subject of parrying.
I am so frustrated with a demonstration by this online swordsman attempting to prove a point by a downward angled cut, a "kesa" cut. Ààaaaaargh.
A kesa giri is a downward 30ish degree cut aimed at the clavicle, in this video it is delivered as an attacking 1st strike. It tends to inevitably prove an ad hoc defense theory of the video maker, but a kesa cut, as an attack defies all known axioms of swordsmanship.
Axioms of swordsmanship. It is an axiom of sword that there is a line between the opponents, the Centre Line. This line is defended ferociously.
It is also an axiom of swordsmanship that if a training partner achieves the position of getting his sword either on top of yours, or inside this Centre Line, he, or she, has won, without delivering the kirioroshi (the Killing Strike).
The kirioroshi is a cut downward on the Centre Line, a killing strike, for obvious reasons it is practiced seperately to the mechanics of achieving a position to be able to deliver it.
A kesa giri, as a first strike, is unheard of, and entirely surrenders the Centre Line. A shidachi (the receiving sword) only has to perform the trivial task of raising their sword from (at a max) gedan, and parryjng with the side of the blade, by forcibly lifting the tip. Kirioroshi can be performed at will, as now shidachi has the Centre.
Every minute that I spend training, and thinking about swordsmanship, and every part of my schools training is to avoid the above scenario. The scenario that is the basic proposition of this video.
So, my tiny advive is, if ever an "expert" tries to show how their way is good at defending a Kesa, move on.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 16, 2017 20:53:18 GMT
Forgive my ignorance, but what does this have to do with his video? Pretty sure he wasnt placing much importance on what sort of cut he was doing. He seemed to be focusing on parrying
I dont really understand your choice of words. So maybe you did make a point and it flew over my head
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 16, 2017 21:33:22 GMT
Lindy's point is valid as to longswords, though I've frequently heard a distinction between the covering blows of early European swordsmanship and the formal "parrying" of duo tempo systems that evolved later. For longsword for example, it's pretty well established that edges will meet in the ordinary course of a sword fight. The significance of this is debated, with some of us maintaining that fulen and winden operate based on the edge and others maintaining that they operate based on pressure. But pretty much nobody follow's Clemen's bizarre fixation on blocking with the flat. Because it turns out that is very very painful on the old fingers and just doesn't work.
As to the Japanese concepts introduced by Jammer, they may be correct. It may be that Katana swordsmen never let edges meet. But Lindy has a LONGSWORD and longsword systems most certainly involved edge contact. One difference may be that once you block the blade with the longsword you have a plethora of options. You can wind one way or the other, you can pull the blade back and around or up and over, you can cut *around* the blade and treadthrough, you can flow into overruning or the first wrestling. Or indeed you can do what Liechtenauer advises and break the cut from above with a zwerchhau--an impossibility for a katana because of its design. The difference in design may support this view. Longswords do not generally have protection for the flat side until the late period. That is, a sword can slip right down the flat and remove fingers. This is not the case with katana, where the fingers are protected from a slide by the disk. If you look at langes messer, the nagel protects the fingers on the outside flat, and indeed we know the system uses that flat of the blade in many sequences (whether you call these "parries" or not). And of course the katana has a nice stiff spine, whereas the longsword doesn't and will flex and bounce if struck from the side.
I've also heard that the edge contact is avoided in Persian and Chinese sword systems from experts in those respective systems. Shamshir uses the back of the blade to displace, jian work the angles and don't seem to have the equivalent of the zorn-ort or threadthrough to remove or roll through an opponent holding the center. I don't think it's so much worry about blade chipping as it is a different style of fighting.
I agree Lindy's cut is not too good under *any* sword system. He's baseball batting the sword and using false time. But it's close in general concept to the classic oberhau cut aimed at the left temple and made with a step. It's the classic German longsword first strike. If you run into no resistance, you cut his face in half. If he counters you have your responses. If you run into strong resistance you try a second winding, treadthrough, wrestling, go up and around or out and back depending on the location of the bind. You train to feel the contact and respond instantly.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 16, 2017 21:58:12 GMT
Why concede defeat? For all of German swordsmanship we have many options when in such a pickle. He may have the center and overbinding me, but I can use fulen to track his blade and turn the tables with a variety of techniques. In I.33 for example if he's overbound me and has the center, I can mutatio to put my blade on his, I can counter shield strike to change the center, or I can close measure and wrestle with an arm wrap or sword wrap. It's not over till someone's cut up. If you want to cut from high above your head (high vom tag) and into the center, that's great. I can break it with zwerch or threadthrough or any number of other options aimed at responding to strong cuts. Any effort to hold a spot ferociously just creates a point in space for the opponent to move around.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 20:17:01 GMT
Every attack is predictable. Centerline cuts are usually the first thing taught. Descending angled cuts are basic, ascending cuts are the same vector. Shift the angle and you have your horizontals. A stab is a straight line. Nothing should work.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 18, 2017 6:32:23 GMT
?? It seems to me like Jammer isn't upset by anything Lindy said, but found something irrelevant to the video to be angry over? I might be missing something very relevant though. I'm not sure. Reading Jammer's post again, it seems like he disregarded everything in Lindy's video except for the word katana, references to the katana, ignored the longsword in the video, and assumed Lindy was proclaiming himself to be an expert JSA swordsman.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 18, 2017 14:16:49 GMT
Not to rain on your parade jammer, but if you look closer to things, that axiom of swordsmanship is just this: an axiom. If you look to this (start from 3:00 Part 1) you will see that sometimes kesa can be 1st attack without giving the centre and sometimes blocking with blade on blade is not that out of space.
PS The 2nd video is added just to have the complete set.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 18, 2017 14:54:00 GMT
I don't think i follow but i really enjoyed the video
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Post by Derzis on Mar 18, 2017 15:19:35 GMT
Simplified, a kesa cut is a diagonal downward cut - as opposed to vertical downward cut. If you check the kenjutsu video (part 1) you will see - if you know what to look for - that their swords are avoiding a vertical downward cut because on battlefield the opponent would have a helmet. The affirmation with kesa never being a 1st option as attack falls short if you don't say in which conditions. And you see some examples with blocks edge on edge (especially when the block is done with the right hand on the blade) to say that you avoid the edge on edge as much as possible, but not all the time. What the guy from the video was saying.
PS And that explains why Toyama ryu is so focused on kesa cuts - soldiers always have helmets, from the ancient times to modern ones. PPS The 2nd video shows the opposite. While not on battlefield, a kesa cut is not used as 1st, not even 2nd cut if the circumstances are not calling for it.
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Post by Richard Arias on Mar 19, 2017 2:12:19 GMT
Simplified, a kesa cut is a diagonal downward cut - as opposed to vertical downward cut. If you check the kenjutsu video (part 1) you will see - if you know what to look for - that their swords are avoiding a vertical downward cut because on battlefield the opponent would have a helmet. The affirmation with kesa never being a 1st option as attack falls short if you don't say in which conditions. And you see some examples with blocks edge on edge (especially when the block is done with the right hand on the blade) to say that you avoid the edge on edge as much as possible, but not all the time. What the guy from the video was saying. PS And that explains why Toyama ryu is so focused on kesa cuts - soldiers always have helmets, from the ancient times to modern ones. PPS The 2nd video shows the opposite. While not on battlefield, a kesa cut is not used as 1st, not even 2nd cut if the circumstances are not calling for it. Im only posting to prevent Misinformation about Toyama Ryu. In the Nakamura Line forms were modified to use kesa as Nakamura believed it to be a stronger more natural cut. His research into the Satsuma Rebellion fights showed this for him. But the Gunto Soho kata of the Post Sino Japanese War (the 20's) were largely Shinchokugiri. Even the other two Toyama lines (Yamaguchi Ha and Morinaga Ha) stick closer to the Gunto Soho Kata. The major modification to Kesa came during the war when Nakamura Sensei was told of an officer who cut an opponents face with shinchokugiri and put to much power on it cutting into his groin at the finish. The officer in question was a ranked Kendoist so the Strike was reflex. But in the same book this story is told there is a story of one of Nakamura's assistants cutting into his knee after trying to power through a target with Kesa.... so I dont feel that incident or some research can condemn shinchoku cuts for everyone. Toyama-ryū Guntō Sōhō (軍刀奏法): Hon Iai Toyama ryu (Morinaga-ha) - 本居合 戸山流 (森 永 派): Toyama ryu (Nakamura-ha) 戸山流 (中村 派): Generally what is first applies to the situation and how good the user is with various cuts. Also the surroundings. Kesa has more cut surface area, but personally I can do shinchoku quicker and fallow with a morote tsuki if needed. Side, spine and edge blocking depend again on situation. I always try for side or spine, but if its the edge or my flesh then so be it.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 19, 2017 2:30:08 GMT
Your point taken, but kesa was not a WW2 invention and nothing changed. A diagonal downcut is what always was (and will be): a diagonal downcut. If you can explain "more natural" without taking in consideration the guard you start the cut and the target you want to cut, I am looking for it - we all learn always. I was taught and told that hasso no kamae is the one used on the battlefield if the sword was the last resort. That guard takes in consideration the helmet that comes with the job also, not just armour - talking just about equipment and nothing else for simplicity.And same helmet on the opponent changes the parameters of the target. Is true that it was a sword test - old tameshigiri - when a sword cuts a real helmet full of hot rise to mimick an actual head with helmet on, but I doubt all the katanas could achieve that and not all soldiers were swordmasters. Fast forward 20 century. You have officers with a pletora of helmets and hats, with a two handed sword on their belt ontop of a low quality equipment as I read. Now good luck doing "civilian" sword technics wearing that. Nakamura Sensei was right - it feels better a kesa in that outfit. If for the sake of simplicity facts were left out, my mistake to bring TR in discussion. I see the TR efficiency and simplicity based on past knowledge regarding battlefield requirements / experience. You see it based on soldier's stupidity.
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Post by Richard Arias on Mar 19, 2017 6:52:28 GMT
Your point taken, but kesa was not a WW2 invention and nothing changed. A diagonal downcut is what always was (and will be): a diagonal downcut. If you can explain "more natural" without taking in consideration the guard you start the cut and the target you want to cut, I am looking for it - we all learn always. I was taught and told that hasso no kamae is the one used on the battlefield if the sword was the last resort. That guard takes in consideration the helmet that comes with the job also, not just armour - talking just about equipment and nothing else for simplicity.And same helmet on the opponent changes the parameters of the target. Is true that it was a sword test - old tameshigiri - when a sword cuts a real helmet full of hot rise to mimick an actual head with helmet on, but I doubt all the katanas could achieve that and not all soldiers were swordmasters. Fast forward 20 century. You have officers with a pletora of helmets and hats, with a two handed sword on their belt ontop of a low quality equipment as I read. Now good luck doing "civilian" sword technics wearing that. Nakamura Sensei was right - it feels better a kesa in that outfit. If for the sake of simplicity facts were left out, my mistake to bring TR in discussion. I see the TR efficiency and simplicity based on past knowledge regarding battlefield requirements / experience. You see it based on soldier's stupidity. I dont see it in any way as stupidity. Nakamura Sensei felt kesa had more power in military dress, sportswear or hakama. It was his belief, reading his book the story of the officer cutting his groin stands out and is referenced in other articles he wrote on why his teaching of toyama changed from others. I view the accident as something that can happen in the heat of a battle. Same with his assistant cutting his knee on a large bamboo during kesa. You get charged up and put a little to much "Umph" on a technique. I like Toyama because during war it was a system... simple and clean. Even the gunto soho give a base that was reinforced with kendo kumitachi and tameshigiri. Officers had months not years to learn proficiency. This is very different from mastery in intent of use. I NEVER claimed kesa was a WW2 invention. That is just silly... I would say "rediscovered and incorporated" Around 1939 according to Nakamura sensei which is why he had said a few times that toyama as Nakamura ha does it came more to exist in '39 even though many sensei claim 1925 as that is when Gunto Soho came to be and if you watch the vids the bunkai is similar. So I can see it both ways. I dont place much stock in old style legends or tales of the battlefield. Even statistics are just a reference mental note at best. I tend to stick to chudan or gedan in Kassen (war team matches) or Tanen Gake (outnumbered) because it gives options and thrusts kill by getting a major organ. I find thrusts harder to judge and defend depth perception wise. Kesa is a powerful, but bigger movement so it catches the eye. Hasso to me is a "well he is going kesa or yoko" and in Chanbara that is a forward open leg without a sword guarding it as would not be the case in Chudan, Segan, or Gedan. 40% of all Chanbara fights end with a leg cut or in my case a stab. My sensei does not teach stabbing of limbs, but I do.... because why not? :) To help people I teach find their truth I omit my opinion. I just show them things and point them towards possibilities. It does not matter if most people like kesa if I am more effective with shinchokugiri and tsuki. Same as it does not matter to my friends wife that in WW2 they used 1911s because she shoots a S&W .38 with accuracy and precision. Some sensei say there are things you never do. Nakamura did at times. But in reality you do what you have to in the fractions of a second you have to act. I dont care for the video but I would not say his points do not have some validity. But he does not really understand sword fighting and thinks of it as in movies as stationary bashing. Beginners fight this way... then you learn distance timing and movement. Planting your feet to be stationary in a parry or block does not stop an attacker. Even if I put my edge out to block or parry its a "just in case" as I move into a more advantageous position. The guy does not get much because he has no real experience. But there are sensei I have met with the same problem. Nobody knows everything. But ranting about a rant... why? :D
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Post by Derzis on Mar 19, 2017 13:37:33 GMT
You read your previous messages usually? First you say "Nakamura believed it to be a stronger more natural cut. His research into the Satsuma Rebellion fights showed this for him." Now you say "Nakamura Sensei felt kesa had more power in military dress, sportswear or hakama." and "I dont place much stock in old style legends or tales of the battlefield." If you don't place stock in old style legends, you shouldn't place stock in what Nakamura was preaching too. Just because those he studied were using "old style" knowledge - unless you deny tradition in japanese culture or you pick whatever you feel it will help your opinions at a moment in time. For the record, hasso-no-kamae is not a sake story for empty nights before a fire. How you teach what you teach from who you teach is your problem.
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Post by jammer on Mar 19, 2017 20:03:49 GMT
Every attack is predictable. Centerline cuts are usually the first thing taught. Descending angled cuts are basic, ascending cuts are the same vector. Shift the angle and you have your horizontals. A stab is a straight line. Nothing should work. A predictable attack provokes a presictble response, a predictable response illicits a predictable counter. But, a kesa strike, as the strikes in LB video, ALWAYS provokes a parry and a smash to the other guys brain. The fact that the parry is on the side of the blade is only so the inevitable counter strike can be delivered with haste. A kesa strike always provokes this response. IME.
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Post by jammer on Mar 19, 2017 20:07:30 GMT
Not to rain on your parade jammer, but if you look closer to things, that axiom of swordsmanship is just this: an axiom. If you look to this (start from 3:00 Part 1) you will see that sometimes kesa can be 1st attack without giving the centre and sometimes blocking with blade on blade is not that out of space. PS The 2nd video is added just to have the complete set. That strike is a yoko men uchi. Yokomen uchi strikes are not only entirely valid and aggresive/demand a block, to deliver them can also be a feint for a shomen uchi.
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Post by Richard Arias on Mar 19, 2017 20:37:34 GMT
You read your previous messages usually? First you say "Nakamura believed it to be a stronger more natural cut. His research into the Satsuma Rebellion fights showed this for him."Now you say "Nakamura Sensei felt kesa had more power in military dress, sportswear or hakama." and "I dont place much stock in old style legends or tales of the battlefield."If you don't place stock in old style legends, you shouldn't place stock in what Nakamura was preaching too. Just because those he studied were using "old style" knowledge - unless you deny tradition in japanese culture or you pick whatever you feel it will help your opinions at a moment in time. For the record, hasso-no-kamae is not a sake story for empty nights before a fire. How you teach what you teach from who you teach is your problem. Do you understand English at all? Did you read my first post with the videos? I dont agree with Nakamura on the subject of Shinchokugiri being inferior. And while his battle groin story is a matter of record as is his assistant cutting his knee in kesa my point was that is something that can happen and should not influence others beliefs because of one Sensei. And while Nakamura was in a few battles during the Manchuria war he has no confirmed kills noted other than cattle towards the end of the world war. You overstated your knowledge of Toyama and I gave gave people more depth of knowledge. Kesa heavy Toyama exists in only 1 of 3 lines and not in the original Gunto Soho in volume. This also goes into when, why where that I keep mentioning. But that is my point and the Guy who made the videos point. You keep saying "I was always taught". Never saying "in my experience". You keep flaunting a style belief without any sure sense of why, when and where this train of thought came to be integrated into your schools ideals. So unless you are willing to actually pay attention and understand what is being discussed stop posting like you have some idea of what Im talking about. Because your posts just show a want to Rant and spread misinformation about a Style and concept you dont train in. Unlike many many koryu schools I can show a student variations in Gunto Soho and Toyama with the context of why the Nakamura and Tanabe lines made personal preference signature changes to forms and fighting concept. I can narrow down the Where, When and Why because the founders of Both Batto styles wrote about it and explained their influences. Just as I can explain my preference and help a student find theirs. I dont want to argue. You not really making sense because I am not sure you grasp much of what is being said. Im not interested in a style tunnel vision debate with you. More so since you cant express any original insight or ideas in your thinking. You just keep trying to open a can of worms.
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Post by jammer on Mar 19, 2017 20:40:12 GMT
Mainly, a yokomen uchi has the asset of looking faintly similar to a kesa giri, and maybe elicititing the same response that the (suicidal) kesa strike may provoke, and so could be a feint.
As a matter of fact the yokomen uchi is sometimes all that can be delivered if one is tired and maybe in armour, it requires a block, rather than a parry, and so is elovated above the strikes in Lindy's video, all of which are suicidal. And should only be parried.
All parries are executed with the side of the blade, as a rule FWIW, a side-of-the-blade pretty much defining it as a parry. All blocks are delivered with the edge of the blade, normally the 1/2 nearest the tsuba/hilt, the unsharpened portion, FWIW, and as a basic rule.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 19, 2017 20:47:17 GMT
You can call them what you want but it's a kesa, jammer. We tend to give a definition and stick with it, while the japanese are more general. You have ukenagashi as parring technique and you have "going through ukenagashi to X position" which is just a movement which mimick a parry, not a parry per se.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 19, 2017 22:13:13 GMT
???????? It seems to me like Jammer isn't upset by anything Lindy said, but found something irrelevant to the video to be angry over? I might be missing something very relevant though. I'm not sure. Reading Jammer's post again, it seems like he disregarded everything in Lindy's video except for the word katana, references to the katana, ignored the longsword in the video, and assumed Lindy was proclaiming himself to be an expert JSA swordsman. I think Jammer understands JSA, so his posts are through that lens and terminology. Lindy probably overstated the case by not restricting himself to longswords or European schools in general. So we have people talking past each other. Jammer criticizes Lindy as if Lindy were demonstrating JSA, and Lindy doesn't make it clear he's speaking in terms of HEMA. Sometimes I don't know if Jammer is willing to believe there *are* other sword fighting systems outside the wee island. I can assure him that a proper covering oberhau from vom tag is not a suicidal attack. While "kesa giri" is from what I understand a more simple diagonal attack made with a different weapon and a different axis of rotation back on the shoulders. This type of attack is NOT the same as our oberhau. It isn't a covering blow. It's far more exposed and dangerous. It also lacks the footwork of an oberhau in vor. Lindy didn't help matters by making a crude chopping gesture instead of having someone demonstrate the covering blow with a longsword. So it may be that they're both correct. Two JSA practitioners making kesa giri at each other might well kill each other. But two HEMAists casting oberhaus at each other from RVT will meet on the edge in the classic manner. I've done it thousands of times at this point with longswords and arming swords.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 20, 2017 1:18:23 GMT
You read your previous messages usually? First you say "Nakamura believed it to be a stronger more natural cut. His research into the Satsuma Rebellion fights showed this for him."Now you say "Nakamura Sensei felt kesa had more power in military dress, sportswear or hakama." and "I dont place much stock in old style legends or tales of the battlefield."If you don't place stock in old style legends, you shouldn't place stock in what Nakamura was preaching too. Just because those he studied were using "old style" knowledge - unless you deny tradition in japanese culture or you pick whatever you feel it will help your opinions at a moment in time. For the record, hasso-no-kamae is not a sake story for empty nights before a fire. How you teach what you teach from who you teach is your problem. Do you understand English at all? Did you read my first post with the videos? I dont agree with Nakamura on the subject of Shinchokugiri being inferior. And while his battle groin story is a matter of record as is his assistant cutting his knee in kesa my point was that is something that can happen and should not influence others beliefs because of one Sensei. And while Nakamura was in a few battles during the Manchuria war he has no confirmed kills noted other than cattle towards the end of the world war. You overstated your knowledge of Toyama and I gave gave people more depth of knowledge. Kesa heavy Toyama exists in only 1 of 3 lines and not in the original Gunto Soho in volume. This also goes into when, why where that I keep mentioning. But that is my point and the Guy who made the videos point. You keep saying "I was always taught". Never saying "in my experience". You keep flaunting a style belief without any sure sense of why, when and where this train of thought came to be integrated into your schools ideals. So unless you are willing to actually pay attention and understand what is being discussed stop posting like you have some idea of what Im talking about. Because your posts just show a want to Rant and spread misinformation about a Style and concept you dont train in. Unlike many many koryu schools I can show a student variations in Gunto Soho and Toyama with the context of why the Nakamura and Tanabe lines made personal preference signature changes to forms and fighting concept. I can narrow down the Where, When and Why because the founders of Both Batto styles wrote about it and explained their influences. Just as I can explain my preference and help a student find theirs. I dont want to argue. You not really making sense because I am not sure you grasp much of what is being said. Im not interested in a style tunnel vision debate with you. More so since you cant express any original insight or ideas in your thinking. You just keep trying to open a can of worms. Tameshigiri is an important part of syllabus for Toyama Ryu? It is. When executing tameshigiri what cut is used quite often? Kesa. I overstated nothing. Kata in TR is full of kesa cuts: 1st kata : gyaku kesa followed by kesa 2nd kata: nukitsuke to the right followed by kesa 3rd kata: tsuki to the left, ukenagashi parry and kesa while retreating 4th kata: turning one handed kesa, end with kesa 5th kata: assassination kata, taking out the sword silently and kill tree opponents with 3 kesa - with some stretch is a variant of an Okuden kata. 6th kata: 2 opponents kata, turning to the back, ukenagashi block, kesa followed by turn and kill the second with kesa 7th kata: 3 opponents kata, one handed cut to the right, kesa to the left and tsuki in front. - variant of SEITEI Sanpogiri 8th kata: execution kata - some can call it testing the sword on human body(ies) which is a part of an older happo giri. The way the sageo is tightened is MSR relic and the chiburi in the end of each kata is also a cut. I have no idea about TR, not even that some are using sword dipping tip while preparing the cut - Jikiden influence - and some Sensei ask the student to keep the sword parallel to the floor while preparing the cut - Shinden influence. Or that the lingering hand on tsuka after chiburi is a reminiscence of "being ready to start again" from koryu. Or that the noto is jikiden influence. I don't know english or understand videos. I will not use "in my experience (add years here)" because these words mean nothing and give no leverage what so ever. The fun in all this is that in 50 years from now TR kata will be considered koryu and not many instructors will be capable to say what those kata mean - what the scenario was when they were created. The fact that some of these kata are talking about scenarios showing a (resemblance) of fight sword vs sword when the army opponents were sword-less it shows how deep the roots are in the tradition, a tradition you ignore. Your personal vendetta with your ex-senseis or even inside the art I presume you teach based on your signature is not my problem.
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