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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 2:48:19 GMT
Any tips on training with a sharp? Yes. Two. First:. You own whatever happens. To yourself and others. 2nd:. It is a marathon not a race. Scars aren't as cool as they sound and ER trips make you feel like an ass. It isn't a thing to do for bragging rights, it's to push yourself as hard as you can. It sounds like ego but it is emphatically not. Slow the eff down and learn.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 3:47:47 GMT
Thank you for the tips. Ill keep them in mind next time i train with sharps
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 3:50:04 GMT
Any tips on training with a sharp? Yes. Two. First:. You own whatever happens. To yourself and others. 2nd:. It is a marathon not a race. Scars aren't as cool as they sound and ER trips make you feel like an ass. It isn't a thing to do for bragging rights, it's to push yourself as hard as you can. It sounds like ego but it is emphatically not. Slow the eff down and learn. Agreed to this. Until and unless you can drill a techniques impeccably in both EXTREMELY SLOW & SUPER FAST speeds, never even think of touching a weapon with a combat intent. You harm yourself more than the other guy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 3:54:27 GMT
Sisyphean? Not sure what that means. But i agree with you. Its definitely still dangerous, even without the intent to kill. Means a task that can never be completed. Kinda like perfection in martial arts or any other thing for that matter. Any tips on training with a sharp? Yeah, drill with blunts as best as you can. I stopped long ago because now I know how it should feel. I don't have accidents or fights (except the ones I go for) like I used to. That was because I was stupid and wanted to feel it first hand. And trust me, scars DO NOT look cool. They look hideous.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 4:29:54 GMT
For me, it's like a weird crossover between Sisyphus and Zeno
You've got this impossible task (pushing the boulder up the hill), and the better you get at it, the more gaps you find to fill in (Achilles and the tortoise).
Buckle up, it's a long road.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 5:20:49 GMT
For me, it's like a weird crossover between Sisyphus and Zeno You've got this impossible task (pushing the boulder up the hill), and the better you get at it, the more gaps you find to fill in (Achilles and the tortoise). Buckle up, it's a long road. That's another aspect I totally can relate to.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 23, 2017 16:30:25 GMT
I agree. And it's been getting worse. Ten years ago the stiff simulators and early feders like A&A's Fetchbook were dominant and had little wobble. Now the feders have become increasingly like fencing foils in the name of safety, which ironically drives the competitors to hit harder and be less safe. They also bear less and less similarity with swords. But the competitive side of HEMA is deaf to these concerns.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 16:58:53 GMT
It's hard to strike a balance between integrity of practice and limiting exposure to liability. I understand people running a school need a full room to make rent and get compensation for the time. It's gotta be safe and fun, because catering to the 2 or 3 lunatics (if you are lucky enough to find that many) who really want the good stuff isn't commercially sustainable.
Money ruins everything.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 23, 2017 19:17:14 GMT
I agree. And it's been getting worse. Ten years ago the stiff simulators and early feders like A&A's Fetchbook were dominant and had little wobble. Now the feders have become increasingly like fencing foils in the name of safety, which ironically drives the competitors to hit harder and be less safe. They also bear less and less similarity with swords. But the competitive side of HEMA is deaf to these concerns. I've often experienced this phenomenon in unarmed martial arts as well. Sparring without pads always seems to have fewer injuries among players than it does once we padded up. Padding/blunts give people a false sense of safety, and there is a tendency want to use more force than the protective equipment can mitigate.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 23, 2017 21:29:13 GMT
I agree. And it's been getting worse. Ten years ago the stiff simulators and early feders like A&A's Fetchbook were dominant and had little wobble. Now the feders have become increasingly like fencing foils in the name of safety, which ironically drives the competitors to hit harder and be less safe. They also bear less and less similarity with swords. But the competitive side of HEMA is deaf to these concerns. That is simply not true. The Regenyei B standard is (funnily) the standard on many tournaments, including the most prestigious of the them, Swordfish. I don't know if you've ever used one but overly flexible it is not. In fact, one of the most flexible feders I've handled is the old Hanwei one and that one has been around longer than pretty much ANY other model. Feders are not getting more flexible. There are loads more types out there now, including overly flexible ones but I don't at all see a move towards "foil like" feders.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 23, 2017 21:40:17 GMT
OK, foil like is me being grumpy. I take that back and admit there aren't any that are foil like ;-) But I can see the flood tide of whippy feders rising!
To be clear I am comparing the Albion Liechtenauer which is the standard simulator for the longsword group I am in with the feders I've seen at tournaments. I also use the A&A Fetchbuch These are both considerably stiffer than the Regenyei. In fact most tournaments only allow flexible feders, not the stiff simulators. On the sword and buckler front, we only permit stiff simulators such as the Binns XIV or I.33 in our group. But if you look over at the tournament scene for S&B, you see some pretty thin noodles indeed. The ones used at last year's combatcon were from SGT blades and are called "feder arming swords," a term that makes Crom weep. Before you say it's critical for safety I've done full speed full contact S&B fighting with stiff simulators as have many others with nary a problem. And I have no doubt the competitors at Combatcon were good enough to be trusted at least as much as I'm trusted (they're getting better every year), but they were given "feder arming swords" instead because tournament organizers think it's safer. That's not based on any actual problem with simulators. It's not like there was a rash of injuries when we were doing the swordsquatch round robin with simulators. There weren't any, and we were going at it pretty hard.
I've actually seen no indication that the tournament scene is interested in stiffer, more realistic simulators. They want feders with plenty of flex. And if you look at the difference between the fetchbuck #187 from A&A and the #203 Fechterspiel you can see the changes over the years. The fetchbuck was not made with HEMA tournaments in mind specifically, and is beefy enough to serve as a simulator nose-to-nose with the Leichtenauer. They made the next offering into more of a modern tournament blade, with more flex. And my subjective sense is that the Regenyei have more flex still, though I've never seen a side-by-side comparison. And in hand they don't feel the same as a longsword, whereas the Liechtenauers do.
THIS, this is what I'm on about:
It's nobody's fault. It's what happens naturally. This is what HEMA competitions do as they become the definition of HEMA. You have standards and practices set up for a modern tournament based on modern sporting norms so your equipment must be made to reflect that. The "H" is just removed and you're left with whatever styles you can find that will work with loose swords. Maybe 17th century longsword or Bolognese, but I.33? No fricking way. A blade that's flexible in the last third can hardly be expected to control overbinds or execute counter-shield strikes. And unsurprisingly this impacts the end results in the fights. It forces changes to techniques.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 23, 2017 22:35:27 GMT
I'm right there with you on single-handed feders, there's really no place for them (I must admit I have one myself but only because I re-worked a longsword-length feder that ended up having to be shortened). And I will say that tournament S&B is about the worst type of fencing I've seen. Doesn't resemble I.33 nor anything else properly. I have a feeling it has to do with the full gear, it inhibits clean I.33 fencing more than it inhibits longsword, saber or rapier fencing it seems.
I have handled a Liechtenauer, unfortunately I don't precisely recall how stiff it was. It probably was somewhat stiffer than the stiff Regenyeis but, really, those aren't floppy. The type A ones are but not the type B. I have seen and owned good quality sharps that had as much or more flex than the Regenyei standard.
I do believe that (fairly stiff) feders are better suited for tournaments than anything else. It's not just having enough flex (you can have the same amount in a blunt simulator though it would be more expensive) but also the mass distribution. A feder has a considerably lighter point and just doesn't hit as hard. In my book that is a good thing for tournaments (and some forms of sparring). Yes, it may be further away from a sharp but that is acceptable for certain settings such as tournaments, if not for general training because, after all, feders are the historically accurate training tool for longsword. Nobody know what the feders of Liechtenauer's time behaved like, sadly. The later ones (originals) are what you would call floppy. Are they suited for earlier longsword work? Nobody really knows...
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 23, 2017 22:45:47 GMT
Yeah maybe the sky isn't falling.
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Post by Croccifixio on Mar 24, 2017 7:21:51 GMT
OK, foil like is me being grumpy. I take that back and admit there aren't any that are foil like ;-) But I can see the flood tide of whippy feders rising! To be clear I am comparing the Albion Liechtenauer which is the standard simulator for the longsword group I am in with the feders I've seen at tournaments. I also use the A&A Fetchbuch These are both considerably stiffer than the Regenyei. In fact most tournaments only allow flexible feders, not the stiff simulators. On the sword and buckler front, we only permit stiff simulators such as the Binns XIV or I.33 in our group. But if you look over at the tournament scene for S&B, you see some pretty thin noodles indeed. The ones used at last year's combatcon were from SGT blades and are called "feder arming swords," a term that makes Crom weep. Before you say it's critical for safety I've done full speed full contact S&B fighting with stiff simulators as have many others with nary a problem. And I have no doubt the competitors at Combatcon were good enough to be trusted at least as much as I'm trusted (they're getting better every year), but they were given "feder arming swords" instead because tournament organizers think it's safer. That's not based on any actual problem with simulators. It's not like there was a rash of injuries when we were doing the swordsquatch round robin with simulators. There weren't any, and we were going at it pretty hard. I've actually seen no indication that the tournament scene is interested in stiffer, more realistic simulators. They want feders with plenty of flex. And if you look at the difference between the fetchbuck #187 from A&A and the #203 Fechterspiel you can see the changes over the years. The fetchbuck was not made with HEMA tournaments in mind specifically, and is beefy enough to serve as a simulator nose-to-nose with the Leichtenauer. They made the next offering into more of a modern tournament blade, with more flex. And my subjective sense is that the Regenyei have more flex still, though I've never seen a side-by-side comparison. And in hand they don't feel the same as a longsword, whereas the Liechtenauers do. THIS, this is what I'm on about: It's nobody's fault. It's what happens naturally. This is what HEMA competitions do as they become the definition of HEMA. You have standards and practices set up for a modern tournament based on modern sporting norms so your equipment must be made to reflect that. The "H" is just removed and you're left with whatever styles you can find that will work with loose swords. Maybe 17th century longsword or Bolognese, but I.33? No fricking way. A blade that's flexible in the last third can hardly be expected to control overbinds or execute counter-shield strikes. And unsurprisingly this impacts the end results in the fights. It forces changes to techniques. Well Greg, more than anyone here you know WHY tournament organizers push subpar but safer weapons. Liability. As tournaments become more popular and mainstream, expect those issues to push the HEMA tournament scene into safer and safer material, which will definitely affect how fighters fight. Sadly, unless and until you solve the issue of "artful and accurate" vs "competitive" fencing and somehow get them both to a respectable level, you won't find the type of tournament that will satisfy "purer" practices like yours.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 12:09:43 GMT
There is "respectable" in terms of clean execution of technique, and "respectable" in terms of gentlemanly sportsmanship.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 24, 2017 15:13:53 GMT
I know. It's ultimately all my fault as a lawyer! Mea maxima culpa! It's like an episode of "The Scary Door" LOL
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Post by jammer on Apr 10, 2017 12:49:17 GMT
I just finally understood what Jammer was saying. That if a downward angled cut were coming, that the type of block LB used wouldnt stop it effectively. With a katana, i agree with him. Especially if the cut had some force behind it, as the best type of guard i have found was the kind they typically use in JSA. At least thats what seemed true in full contact stick fighting. But the guard on a longsword enables a different sort of system. But if the blades bit into each other, it might stop the attacking blade from sliding down to the guard, (leaving the defender to deal with the force, possibly with the weak of the blade) which is a lot less likely to happen when sparring with wasters or dull swords. My opinion on it all is "depends on circumstances" You are close. If we imagine us two squared off, I have my sword in a guard other than middle guard (chudan), low or high doesnt really matter, both suffice. If you strike down at an angle, in JSA it is called a kesa, as in LB video, all i have to do us put my sword into a high tipped chudan type position and I have blocked/parried your initial attack. I can cover my entire body with a single raise of tbe tip. A half shuffle back during the parry makes me even safer. This "move" is the exact move that LB performa in his video. Now, performing this move, not only have i blocked or parried your strike, i have an inside line to your head, because you didnt cut down the middle and force me to get out of shape, you surrendered the centre with your strike, like a reinactor, LB, or a movie actor, who wants his strike to be intercepted. Try it with a partner, stand in gedan, and get them to cut you at a 30 degrees angle, lift your tip high to parry, intercept, and then bonk them on the head. This isnt advanced sworrdsmanship, its one of the 1st things you will learn. Then get them to cut straight down onto your forehead and try to block/parry to see the difference. This is the problem I have with LBs, and most tbh, swordsmanship videos. Its the downward kesa strike. It is so easy to defend against, and doesnt at all conform to the utter basics of martial arts.
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 12, 2017 21:45:45 GMT
You seem to be describing countering the oberhau from right vom tag with a somewhat reserved longpoint. That's a fine move (provided you cover your exposed left high quadrant by rising with your thrust into an extended left ochs), but as with any other it has counters. The person cutting from RVT can change to a shielhau or some other counter to longpoint. Here is Jake Norwood explaining some permutations of this master cut:
Of course you don't have the thumb grip or the short edge in JSA. Or a crossguard. But Lindy was discussing longswords, albeit rather crudely. So I think you are at cross-purposes here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 0:16:17 GMT
Make sure you run your assumptions through filters to ensure they come out intact. I believed whole-heartededly that pointing my sword in a particular direction with a particular posture was sufficient to negate an attack, and it was right up until a bad-ass swordsman tore through it and sent my weapon bouncing off of three different corners of a sizeable martial studio. He tore through what I thought was a defense because he had superior structure and direction of force, and he generated a degree of power I hadn't encountered previously. It went from thinking I had a checkmate to the other guy flipping the table over (and it was awesome).
As far as the short edge goes, can't speak for anyone else but I've seen plenty of techniques that face the edge facing out and the tip of the katana curving in, swung as one would strike with the false edge to pop the kissaki to the side of the head, striking into the temple. Even further up, a solid blow with the mune to the side of someone's head is no joke and will concentrate more force than a bokken or waster. You wouldn't want to take a baseball bat to the head and that's blunt, narrow it the width of a blunted sword and it's still considerable force being concentrated. Hit with some conviction, and the lack of a sharp edge is a matter of academics.
I cracked a tough little coconut wide open with a casual "false edge" katana strike, and have no question that it would ruin someone's day with a surprisingly slight amount of force.
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Post by Cosmoline on Apr 13, 2017 0:46:05 GMT
Do the JSA's feature a move akin to the "squinter" as shown in the video? That would be interesting to see.
Obviously there are no absolutes. That was my point. I was responding to Jammer's position that a cut from the right shoulder at an angle could always be countered by a kind of long point (at least that's how I read it). I pointed out that in the Verse there is a known counter to such a technique. It doesn't always work. Esp. not for mere mortals who don't have Jake's speed and skill.
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