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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 18:48:28 GMT
I think something more than just forms against air is necessary if you want to understand how swords function. Who here is suggesting otherwise? This is the second time you've mentioned swords in the air and I'm trying to understand where it is coming from. In regards to interacting with others, sparring isn't even required, just meet in person and train. I've met with people outside my dojo in the last couple years on East and West coast US, Van Couver CA, Zaragoza Spain and... I'm having a hell of a time remembering where it was in Japan, Nagoya maybe? That was an insane blur of jet lag, but no troubles whatsoever without a single spar because things can be demonstrated more easily and off the internet people actually have to work instead of presenting a persona that makes them look like they train.
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Post by Cosmoline on Mar 22, 2017 19:18:08 GMT
It's a point of agreement. At this point you appear to be trying to pick a fight over a point of agreement. Think about that for a moment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 19:46:03 GMT
It's a point of agreement. At this point you appear to be trying to pick a fight over a point of agreement. Think about that for a moment. "I misunderstood you. I thought you simply never dealt with opposing blades.". I'm pretty sure we'd already discussed that in various previous threads, but there's a lot of people and a lot of threads so its silly to expect someone to remember them all. This thread has been all over the map so I'm trying to sort out where people are. I understand what you mean there. Not trying to pick a fight, lets try not to read in malintent and just ask when there's a question.
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Post by Richard Arias on Mar 22, 2017 19:51:21 GMT
I have had shinkendo sensei as well as koryu sensei tell me that if the Kata and Kumitachi are right you dont need free sparring. A common enough claim. The trick is that magic word in there: "right". Similar claims are common in unarmed martial arts. "You just need to learn the forms, and then you'll be able to use the techniques in a fight." Sometimes, that's supported by the "too deadly to spar". When those claims are put to the test, the students are usually found lacking. They didn't manage that magic "right". Clearly, their claim was wrong - something beyond just learning the form is needed. As well as learning the techniques (which they will learn from the form), the students must also learn to actually hit things (e.g., via bag work), learn how opponents move, try to deceive them, how they defend, learn to deceive opponents, learn timing and distance. And learn to not freeze under pressure. Two-person kata and drills done right can provide that "right". Pressure, non-compliant partner, non-choreographed stuff - these can (and have been) done without sparring. An opposite claim is often made in unarmed MA: "You can't learn to fight without full-contact sparring." Having seen people learn to fight without full-contact sparring, I know that claim is wrong. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. More than "just forms" is needed, but full-contact sparring isn't needed. "Aliveness" is needed, and sparring is a useful and (if done right) efficient way to provide that. But not the only way to provide that. And for their goal of proper techniques and cutting I say sure. But for use in a self defense situation the exercises and kata make assumptions that are not likely to occur. If the exercises don't develop the right skills, they're not the right exercises. This is not the same as whether or not assumptions made in exercises/kata are likely to occur. If the student learns the right skills, the training methods work. Kata are a training tool, not a rehearsal for a fight. I meant that for Toyama the kata have a scenario and order of combat. I have seen many students put combinations of techniques from Kata in sparring and wonder why they got cut. Yes kata are just tools, but the moves burned in can take hold in sparring. The toyama hypothetical scenarios are rare in Tanin Gake or kasen for sure. Their classic approach to bunkai is from Koryu influence. But that is why Kendo, Tankendo and Jukendo were huge parts of training. In toyama bunkai there is often a wounding stroke falowed by a kill stroke. Yet purpose of cutting and Kendo at the academy was to develop "one stroke kill ethos". In sparring you find there is not often time for some big cuts or fallow ups. You may wound and move on to another threat. Thats what I man by the bunkai are not likely to occur. You can use the concept, but not have the ideal response or results. I see now that people in posts are not getting my meaning. One Particular moment I recall a student tried to use Toyama 1 in Kasen (War-Chanbara even teams match) He zeroed in on his mark and drew. He missed the kesa draw by a hair, but as he closed for the second kesa he was killed from a thrust because there was a swordsman in his blind spot and his team mates did not watch his back. But thats what fighting in numbers can teach you. Yeah one person is in front, but there are more in the fight. But that is what people keep missing this point. Chanbara is where students get a feel for when to use those moves and how well they work for them as individuals. Distance and timing have to be learned by doing. And "reflex" I would say "fast actions". Just like when you pull your hand back form a hot stove to not get burned you should act fast with a response to avoid dying. But students are like kids in that it takes burning their hand to get the "thats hot! Avoid that next time", telling them is never enough usually. So they find the why. People are missing the point thinking about a duel because in self defense or in Japans Waring states era it was battlefield same as it was for sword users in WW2. So not that the student did "Wrong". But charging in and not sticking to your team was not the best call. And 4to1 facing a Nito swordsman, Yari, and two Katana users (a scenario during my Dan exams) was pure hell for 5min. The constant change of maai and the attacks in pairs you just get cut to pieces. In about 10 engagements of this format I survived 2... with what would have been in reality massive flash wounds making me need an ER. But that is my point also is I have seen many swordsman and empty hand martial arts that feel they know when, where and how to use their training. Then you put them into some hard sparring formats and they come out scratching their heads at times. Dueling is the warmup same as shooting in a single lane at the gun range. Kasen and Tanin Gake are akin to a tactical obstacle course. If people can learn from padded sparring great. Better in a safe environment than on the street or in a firefight when its to late. Even my pistol instructor recommendations Airsoft to learn cover and concealment in CQB.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 22, 2017 20:13:16 GMT
Those hypothetical scenarios should have taught the student when to use a technic too, not to use it blindly. It's a student and sensei problem, not the fact that repeating a kata forced you to not understand what you are doing. You tell us now that "stop" "steer left" "steer right" "accelerate" "decelerate" "change the gears" "back up" "use mirrors" "understand signs" and so on are so burnt in you and the culprit for accidents is the fact that you did them too many times.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 20:17:11 GMT
Those hypothetical scenarios should have taught the student when to use a technic too, not to use it blindly. It's a student and sensei problem, not the fact that repeating a kata forced you to not understand what you are doing. You tell us now that "stop" "steer left" "steer right" "accelerate" "decelerate" "change the gears" "back up" "use mirrors" "understand signs" and so on are so burnt in you and the culprit for accidents is the fact that you did too much use of those. "This, so hard" as the kids say. It is context specific, you dont jam the actions or sequences wherever you feel like it. No wonder people think it doesn't work, they're using it wrong. I dont blame him one bit because he speaks the truth there, people think motions in kata are like video game special moves or something, its why "muscle memory" makes me cringe. Edited wrong name out, sorry!
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Post by Derzis on Mar 22, 2017 20:37:02 GMT
And what's the point to have a sensei then? The guy who's leading must know better than a video game. It's not an assumption, it's how the reality is in any decent dojo. The misusing of a technique happens when you spar without basic understanding of why and when a technic is used, not due to the repetition of a technique.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 20:45:19 GMT
And what's the point to have a sensei then? The guy who's leading must know better than a video game. It's not an assumption, it's how the reality is in any decent dojo. Hard to say if it is bad or incomplete instruction. Sensei might not want to spoonfeed, and see if the student has insight or is actually awake or just being a robot.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 22, 2017 20:55:49 GMT
Incomplete instructions for basic things? I know some of them don't say subtle things unless you come with your own explanation and ask them their opinion*, but I didn't met until now someone to cover things for basics. In all types of seminars basics are in the open and repeated until your body hurts.
PS *After showing interest, they will come to you with subtle indications if you got stuck in something. But this is other story.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 21:17:54 GMT
I don't know, maybe its assumed to be understood if its so basic, I'd have to be there. Maybe it hasn't come up because the students have no business worrying about application yet. Hard to tell without a fuller picture
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Post by Derzis on Mar 22, 2017 21:23:26 GMT
If students don't have to worry about the application yet, you don't put them to spar. Nobody wants accidents or his students to not progress.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 0:03:33 GMT
Sparring is actually a great way to learn about how to use a sword. Of course that's just my opinion, but when you go medium/full contact, you kinda gotta think fast or get hurt.
Same thing i learned with real fighting too. Even if the student has really bad offense they can eventually understand the concept of defense. I did anyway
Accidents are a fantastic way to learn if you aint a fan of pain
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 0:57:39 GMT
Sparring is actually a great way to learn about how to use a sword. Of course that's just my opinion, but when you go medium/full contact, you kinda gotta think fast or get hurt. Same thing i learned with real fighting too. Even if the student has really bad offense they can eventually understand the concept of defense. I did anyway Accidents are a fantastic way to learn if you aint a fan of pain Yup. And I have gone full intention with various weapons, sometimes with and on rare occasions without light-ish armor. That was my first and only experience of getting stabbed, though it wasn't too deep. And it was a tanto tipped knife so it didn't burrow too deep into my arm. But that danger remains and it's pretty much an unspoken mutual agreement with your sparring partner that you both won't cross the line. That makes the whole concept quite Sisyphean no?
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Post by Derzis on Mar 23, 2017 1:22:53 GMT
Sparring involves rules. Written and unwritten. Your partner of sparring is not your enemy is 1st rule. You are both there to learn not to cut the heads off. Sometimes is not easy to keep that in mind when adrenaline is rushing and you just started and have no clue how to protect yourself with the sword. Give a sword to someone from the street and will attack natural - it's in human nature, a tool gives wings. But how to survive an attack needs more than a tool. Needs discipline and at least to be shown how to do it. I am not against sparring per se, I am against letting things happen when someone lacks basic knowledge. A prearanged drill with increasing freedom in when what why and who attacks who based on skills achieved is as good as sparring as training tool imo. There is a reason why you don't see white belts tournaments. You want to win a match? Learn 1single technic that it comes natural to you, do it thousands times in all scenario possible and with different partners. Most of the top guys are doing just this - impenetrable and quick as hell in what they do. They don't adapt to opponent, they force the opponent to play their script.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 2:09:33 GMT
Im not going to claim my sparring was a valid martial art, cause it wasnt. It was just me and some friends going at it with home made bokkens. We hit hard too. Was t dangerous? Sure it was. Was it idiotic? Probably. But being safe isnt very fun. It did make me realize what worked and what didnt work. I didnt learn to cut off a head. But i learned what blocks could effectively stop the momentum of an incoming blow from a guy with a heavy stick and strong arms.
I have gotten hit on the hands (though it wasnt intentional, so it wasnt full force with intention to break my fingers). Ive been hit in the shoulders too. Been nearly hit on the head so many times, but adrenaline is a hell of a thing.
Not saying sparring is a be all end all. Ive been attacked many times in my life and stick fighting with friends was nothing like that. But just saying that i am not against a variety of training
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 2:21:57 GMT
Sparring is actually a great way to learn about how to use a sword. Of course that's just my opinion, but when you go medium/full contact, you kinda gotta think fast or get hurt. Same thing i learned with real fighting too. Even if the student has really bad offense they can eventually understand the concept of defense. I did anyway Accidents are a fantastic way to learn if you aint a fan of pain Yup. And I have gone full intention with various weapons, sometimes with and on rare occasions without light-ish armor. That was my first and only experience of getting stabbed, though it wasn't too deep. And it was a tanto tipped knife so it didn't burrow too deep into my arm. But that danger remains and it's pretty much an unspoken mutual agreement with your sparring partner that you both won't cross the line. That makes the whole concept quite Sisyphean no? Sisyphean? Not sure what that means. But i agree with you. Its definitely still dangerous, even without the intent to kill.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 23, 2017 2:22:08 GMT
That's "trial and error" method of training Djinnobi, when there are not many things known. It's best for some things, but is not the single one.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 2:27:03 GMT
That's "trial and error" method of training Djinnobi, when there are not many things known. It's best for some things, but is not the single one. I agree entirely. In fact, there are probably better ways to do things too. But i take what i can get
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 2:28:07 GMT
For a time I bought into needing real weapons. Its still a strong preference, but they can be dispensed with for the most part if you are able to get yourself to a place where you treat something like a bokken or waster the same way as you would treat a shinken or true longsword and you have training partners that can reinforce that, but it takes discipline. This can be reinforced by incorporating the live blades as needed to bring people back to reality. My seniors are scarier with bokken than my previous "reality based system" that patted itself on the back for using shinken. Its not just what you use, but how you use it.
Getting my hands on an actual longsword, first from Albion then from Stefan Roth spoiled me on the overly floppy training longswords like Hanwei feders. Maybe better ones act differently, but the exagerrated flop to accomplish safe stabbing is useless to me. The interractions are all wrong. I don't have a large sample to pull from, but if all you know is flop that will introduce artifacts.
Just using a sharp doesn't say anything about skill though. I wish someone had told me that in my first three years. My assumption was real sword = real skill, but there's a little more to it than that.
I reference using real swords quite a bit, so I thought I'd mention this thought while it occurred to me in case it can help someone else.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Mar 23, 2017 2:29:13 GMT
Any tips on training with a sharp?
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