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Post by Derzis on Dec 26, 2016 13:34:52 GMT
...way you differentiate a sword from a messer. A tactical katana is a possible messer with katana blade geometry? Or more general, any tactical sword should be actually tactical messer with blade geometry type "x"? Don’t forget the nagel, or nail if you will. Where is it on a tactical katana? Or cross guard for that matter? The guy said something about guard types? No.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 26, 2016 16:49:09 GMT
In the old manuscripts about messer techniques you see messers with only a short crossguard like a tsuba too, but swordlike crossbars with a nagel are more typical. I'm just watching a dvd about messer techniques and many of them use a larger crossguard. Btw. there is some blade gripping what seems to be not a good idea with a very sharp katana (don't know much about jsa but don't remember ever have seen that). Pgandy's video shows techniques similar to messer but his dagger is not far away from a shorter messer in lenght.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 26, 2016 18:36:33 GMT
You can use the blade in a half-sword technique - there are ways to do it - but for someone to try to grip the katana blade is something recommended when you want to lose your fingers.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 26, 2016 18:48:14 GMT
I don't see why gripping a katana blade would be inherently different than a Messer blade. Both are single edged and sharp (no, katana aren't sharper). Also, niku has little to do with differential heat treatment, more with blade geometry and intended target. The heat treat only plays in as a secondary factor.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 26, 2016 18:52:25 GMT
I've read that some messer techniques esp. for disarming the opponent in close range with much blade gripping were used in shows, perhaps with blunts like in the dvd. I doubt that someone grips a sharp messer in that way. It might be easyer with the own blade with the blunt side to your body.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 26, 2016 19:00:06 GMT
Well, no doubt a blunt blade makes gripping easier ;) Many rondel disarming techniques rely on that. But I wouldn't assume blade gripping can only be done with blunts (too many sources with def. sharp blades show them) and if you can do it with a sharp messer, you can do it with a sharp katana. If and when it makes sense from a martial stand point is a different question.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 26, 2016 19:31:15 GMT
If and when it makes sense from a martial stand point is a different question. That's the essence in reality. It is the real question, otherwise we know a sword can make a decent tomatoes cutter too and nobody can say "is not true".
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Post by Owlski on Dec 26, 2016 21:15:55 GMT
If I recall correctly, using one hand on the blade while the other on the handle is called "half-swording" is it not? Gripping a sharp blade in and of itself isn't too dangerous, just so long as you don't slide your hand around. Most cases though I've heard of half-swording, they used gauntlets or some form of hand protection.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 26, 2016 22:48:14 GMT
The problem with griping a sharp edge without the other trying to do something like moving the blade is solved: it will never happen other than holywood movie scenes.
And nobody with formal training will put the fingers on a sharp cutting edge with the intention to stab someone either - unless read above about movies.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 27, 2016 4:01:25 GMT
Afaik halfswording was a fighting style against opponents in plate armor with thrust orientated swords that were not sooo sharp in the middle of the blade, where to grip them. From a messer I would expect more sharpness there.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 27, 2016 5:31:09 GMT
This is not historical, only taken from my understanding of history; I would not grab my katanas’ blade in order to short sword. No way, no how. On the other hand my European blades from dagger up to and including my bastard sword are only sharpened for about 19” except the dagger which is halfway or about 7½”. I did this mainly for the parry and minimize damage, but also to be able to grab the blade. And before I get any messages about using the cutting edge for parrying let me say I KNOW ALREADY. But in the heat of things expect the unexpected. And from backyard cutting experience I’ve never found this to be a problem. I do have working knives that are completely sharpened.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 27, 2016 8:12:45 GMT
Afaik halfswording was a fighting style against opponents in plate armor with thrust orientated swords that were not sooo sharp in the middle of the blade, where to grip them. From a messer I would expect more sharpness there. The problem is that we have lots of gripping the blade in treatises that do NOT contain armored combat. Such as Messer. And I see no evidence to suggest they used blunts (in one or all of the manuals). In fact, single-edged blades make gripping much safer, there's only one edge you need to worry about not touching. pgandy : you can sharpen your blades any way you want of course but again, there is no shred of evidence to suggest sword were only sharpened in the top half. On the contrary, the originals we have tend to be sharp all the way down (certain exception exist, as usual) and we also have techniques like Hände Drücken in the treatises that employ the strong of the blade and being sharp there greatly aids the technique. So as far as we know, swords (and daggers if they are edged, not all were, see rondels) should be sharpened all the way down. Everything else is fantasy. Now, the edge geometry can differ substantially from foible to forte, with a stronger/steeper angle further down (which does make it just slightly less likely to cut you) but it is still sharp in the sense that both bevels meet and the edge easily slices paper.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 27, 2016 8:15:32 GMT
And nobody with formal training will put the fingers on a sharp cutting edge with the intention to stab someone either - unless read above about movies. Depending on what you mean, I agree or not. Yes, putting your finger on the sharp edge itself is a stupid idea, but holding the flat is not. So yeah, no to the first part, a firm yes on the second part.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 27, 2016 11:59:31 GMT
And nobody with formal training will put the fingers on a sharp cutting edge with the intention to stab someone either - unless read above about movies. Depending on what you mean, I agree or not. Yes, putting your finger on the sharp edge itself is a stupid idea, but holding the flat is not. So yeah, no to the first part, a firm yes on the second part. I used the word "flat" somewhere? I don't think someone with a formal training needs to be explained the difference between "cutting edge" and "flat". Any technique with any sharp sword that goes for half-swording involves the flat. Someone above was talking about holding it by the edge, protected or keeping it still.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 27, 2016 12:18:36 GMT
I would not grab my katanas’ blade in order to short sword. No way, no how. That's the difference between someone with formal training and someone with nothing but passion for the sword. Half-swording with a katana it's easy once you were told how to.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 27, 2016 12:21:51 GMT
I'd seen it in the dvd with blunts, gripping carelessly around the "edge". I thought that would be only ok for demonstrating some disarming techniques.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 27, 2016 14:06:26 GMT
pgandy : you can sharpen your blades any way you want of course but again, there is no shred of evidence to suggest sword were only sharpened in the top half. On the contrary, the originals we have tend to be sharp all the way down (certain exception exist, as usual) and we also have techniques like Hände Drücken in the treatises that employ the strong of the blade and being sharp there greatly aids the technique. So as far as we know, swords (and daggers if they are edged, not all were, see rondels) should be sharpened all the way down. Everything else is fantasy. Now, the edge geometry can differ substantially from foible to forte, with a stronger/steeper angle further down (which does make it just slightly less likely to cut you) but it is still sharp in the sense that both bevels meet and the edge easily slices paper. Well now, I don’t try to duplicate history by partially sharpening my swords. Although I know sabre blades at times were not fully sharpened. Personally I find it to my liking. Why worry about maintaining a sharp edge when it’s not used? And also it makes a convenient grab spot for whatever. Sharpening for an example. I know I can use gloves, and have, but why bother. I never cut with that part of the blade on a sword. I do on some of my working knives in order to do some jobs such as whittling. As for the dagger, see the video. I blocked with the blade’s side, however in a tight that may not always be the case. And again I don’t need it. Once the blade starts in it is capable oro going to the hilt. But thanks for the info.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 27, 2016 22:16:18 GMT
You could solve all your problems with cut resistant gloves. No edge can cut through my gloves. Even a literal razor can't cut through them
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Post by pgandy on Dec 27, 2016 22:26:55 GMT
... I know I can use gloves, and have, but why bother. I never cut with that part of the blade on a sword... From a previous post.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 27, 2016 23:06:57 GMT
What if you wanna half sword with the katana ?
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