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Post by Owlski on Dec 22, 2016 20:11:54 GMT
Hi all,
So I've been trying to find comparisons between kriegmessers and katanas, but I cannot find anyone just doing a comparison between the two. Both swords are made for cutting/slicing, and they have similar blade profiles, so I'm curious how the two compare.
Note: I'm not asking; "Which one is better?", as both swords have their own use and functions.
I just wish for someone who's handled both to give a side by side comparison about the handling, feel, performance, and overall difference & similarities these two blades have.
I own a few katanas (mainly Hanwei), but don't have much experience (or knowledge of handling) of more european-styled swords.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 22, 2016 20:21:21 GMT
Are you talking about the two handed messers? We don't know all that much about those. You can use them with longsword methods of course. But to my mind, the standard langes messer is more than ferocious enough. And we have a solid ton of information on how to fight with those.
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Post by Owlski on Dec 22, 2016 22:09:31 GMT
Are you talking about the two handed messers? We don't know all that much about those. You can use them with longsword methods of course. But to my mind, the standard langes messer is more than ferocious enough. And we have a solid ton of information on how to fight with those. Hey, thanks for getting back to me. As previously stated; I don't have much knowledge on the european side of things, but when I say kriegsmesser, I'm thinking of something along the lines of like what Albion has. There's a fair more examples form other companies, but it's the one that initially comes to mind when I think of messers. There seems to be a lot of varients for the messer-types, so I'll post pictures below of general messers I'm reffering to (Albion included):    What inspired me to ponder the comparisons between the two is from a pictures of a custom east meets west sword made by the talented John Lundemo. Tracking down the source of the picture, I found a forum post at swordforum dating back a few years: www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?100475-Odinblade-Custom-Warderesque-Two-Handed-SaberSeems John also had a line of swords called warder swords, which were more like saber-styled blades. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 22, 2016 22:25:35 GMT
I can't imagine there'd be too much difference between the two. The biggest difference I can see is the cross-guard: a tsuba will allow basically any movement of the sword, while the cross-guard on a Euro sword can bump into your arm if you try certain movements. Of course, the cross-guard can be used as a weapon, or to block, etc., so the techniques would probably vary....
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 22, 2016 22:35:20 GMT
A Kriegsmesser is a flexible tempered steel odachi with a long crossguard for a fighting style similar to a longsword, that is different from a katana.
I have none (yet), but it's on my list because Kriegsmesser are from south germany like me (a cultural heritage thing).
The pictures make me drool.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 22, 2016 22:49:48 GMT
I have none (yet), but it's on my list because Kriegsmesser are from south germany like me (a cultural heritage thing). The pictures make me drool. Seconded (except for the part about being from south Germany - but I could still call it a cultural heritage thing I guess; I do have some German ancestry going back to Saxony and Baden).... |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 22, 2016 22:54:19 GMT
That's real Kriegsmesser country, for sure!  |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 22, 2016 23:00:50 GMT
That's real Kriegsmesser country, for sure! Well cool! Now I can use that as an excuse when dropping $400+ on a sword.... |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 22, 2016 23:08:42 GMT
Take one with a Nagel like the first picture!
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Post by pgandy on Dec 22, 2016 23:36:47 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 22, 2016 23:49:58 GMT
I think that's not an absolutely "must be", picture #2 I would call a Kriegsmesser too, not a falchion.
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Post by pgandy on Dec 22, 2016 23:52:20 GMT
Somewhere out there there is a thread on this including a video. I don't have time to look for it, maybe later.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 23, 2016 1:01:28 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 23, 2016 1:30:46 GMT
Information on the two handed mega-ultra-messers is limited, but based on the techniques with the more typical one handed variety the crossguard and nagel make any attempt to win a bind/wind encounter difficult. They also make it difficult to cut the hands from an acute angle, as the steel provides surprising amounts of deflection for blows. Even more than ordinary with the nagel protecting the back of the hand. The nagel also allows for "catches" of an incoming blow as seen in the inverted parry in Glasgow and Talhoffer. www.encasedinsteel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Cod.icon_.394a_114v.jpg The person in the parry can either cut to the right with the short edge or make a snap to the left zwerch fashion with the long edge. The second action tends to "spit" the incoming blade out in a most enjoyable fashion. This is just one of hundreds of options messer fighters have at their disposal. And of course the two handers also have all the longsword options. A person could spend a whole lifetime learning the methods in Leckuchner alone. wiktenauer.com/wiki/Kunst_des_Messerfechtens_(Cgm_582)I'm fairly sure the Mega Messers have longer blades than the standard katana. In fact IIRC katana have a blade length closer to the standard langes messer. That could be a mismatch problem. As Andi suggests, the odachi would probably be a better match. Either way, if you are going to fight against messer, GOD HELP YOU! |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 23, 2016 1:35:39 GMT
My little sister walked up behind me while I was looking at this. Her comment: "Why are they fighting like that? Naked!"  Try explaining medieval hose to a little girl.... |
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Post by pgandy on Dec 23, 2016 2:08:03 GMT
Thanks for the help fellows. Still pushed for time and found this although it wasn't the one that I had in mind ( the other is better) but after seeing it I remembered it. And going by memory only without going back and checking this old man’s memory, as it does get off at times, the reason for the messer was to get around the law regarding swords and/or their manufacture. So the messers were made in the manner they were in order to declare them knives.
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Post by Owlski on Dec 23, 2016 2:44:09 GMT
Interesting information everyone.
Thank you for all the links & detailed explanation thus far.
Also, I think you may be right there pgandy. The sword is more likely a falchion, though can falchions have blade lengths as long as the one in that John Lundemo made? The OP on that swordforum post, mentioned the blade length alone was 37 inches!
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 23, 2016 6:13:21 GMT
Yeah I'm not happy with the explanation that messers were legally "knives" in the sense of "oh officer it's just a knife. It doesn't have primary source support, and doesn't really make sense in context. There was no one law in the HRE. There were hundreds of different jurisdictions and most laws weren't even written down, let alone enforced as we would understand that today. Rule of law didn't really exist. If you look at the bauernwehr, hauswehr and other German peasant blades you'll see many similarities with the langes messer. The nagle, the handle shape and the use of riveted scales all make these a species of knife/messer. The langes messer is called that because it comes from those same blades, only made longer given a short edge and a crossguard to supplement the nagel. There's a continuum of knife types. And people at the time judged what to call it by the handle, nagle, etc. It was a knife. The separation between sword and knife was not, to them, a matter of blade length. That's a modern concept. Messer are made like a knife, so they're called knives. The confusion is because modern English has divided these things based on blade length, and since the codes of most nations legally divide blade types based on length. The Germans at the time didn't. So a sword was a sword because it was made like a sword, regardless of length. Likewise with the messer. My little sister walked up behind me while I was looking at this. Her comment: "Why are they fighting like that? Naked!" :P Try explaining medieval hose to a little girl.... LOL they did blossfetchen in their undies so nobody could cheat, I think. |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 23, 2016 6:22:08 GMT
Yeah, it's hard to hide a full plate armor under this dress.
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 23, 2016 13:07:17 GMT
I'll address some general thinga people haven't mentioned.
Kriegmessers, like most High Medieval/Rennaissance era swords, had radical distal taper affecting their handling significantly. The albion knecht for instance, based closely on an original, starts at a very thick 8-9mm at base and goes down all the way to 2mm below at the center of percussion. This is basically 75% distal taper or more. This also makes the blade very nimble for its size, and gives it a very acute edge angle. It makes sense if you consider their use as essentially another type of longsword more aligned towards cutting than the usual swords of the day.
Katana on the other hand had an average taper of 30% up to around 50%. Their beefy geometry makes them quite stiff, and the differential hardening with or without clay makes their edges very hard. As such, they were made relatively short weapons to maintain their quick handling, if you consider their use as two handed swords. All that mass means the blade packs quite a punch of course, but again it is shorter (tachi were closer to longswords in length but were primarily cavalry swords) than longswords/kriegmessers and thicker.
So in my view they are very different weapons. Kriegmesser are closer to Chinese jian or dao IMO given the radical profile shifts, while katanas are more akin to two-handed cutlasses/hangers.
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