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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 23, 2016 13:30:02 GMT
Kriegsmesser is what you get when you take a katana, put a proper guard on it, lengthen it until it isn't a short bugger anymore and use actual mass distribution with sophisticated distal taper to make it work.
Possibly I'm biased though... ;)
In all seriousness, they are quite different weapons and many aspects play together in why they are shaped the way they are.
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Post by Owlski on Dec 23, 2016 20:31:24 GMT
Thank you all for the informative comparisons.
It's interesting to hear about the blade geometry and the distal tapers in the blades.
To those that own any kriegmessers, do the blades behave in a similar way (in terms of flexibility) like a common European longsword (for example; A Hanwei tinker) or is it more rigid?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 23, 2016 22:38:22 GMT
The sword is more likely a falchion, though can falchions have blade lengths as long as the one in that John Lundemo made? The OP on that swordforum post, mentioned the blade length alone was 37 inches! The blade does not determine the difference between a falchion and messer. It is in the construction of the handle. The two share a similar blade. |
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Dec 24, 2016 0:37:00 GMT
Thank you all for the informative comparisons. It's interesting to hear about the blade geometry and the distal tapers in the blades. To those that own any kriegmessers, do the blades behave in a similar way (in terms of flexibility) like a common European longsword (for example; A Hanwei tinker) or is it more rigid? There is no common European longsword. Longswords differ quite immensely in many aspects, including stiffness. Likewise, Kriegsmesser vary in the amount of flex they have. It can be said though that one advantage of having a single edged blade is that you can combine a narrow edge angle with a fairly thick and therefore stiff spine. The complex distal taper found in many Messer blades gives a fairly rigid blade though nowhere near as stiff as a thrusting-oriented XV, XVIII, etc. |
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Post by Owlski on Dec 24, 2016 4:51:05 GMT
Ah, thanks for correcting/informing me on those things.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2016 5:18:38 GMT
I would prefer a kriegsmesser to a katana despite never have even touched a Messer and despite being a big fan of katana
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2016 13:44:30 GMT
My sentiments exactly. I love katanas but would choose a kriegsmesser, if for no other reason than better hand protection.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 24, 2016 14:43:30 GMT
I would take an O-katana vs Messer and a Messer vs katana. Just because the length of the blade will be the decision maker based on the fighting technics I know. I can use a Messer like a katana if need be, but the extra inches I can't provide.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2016 15:55:58 GMT
I would take an O-katana vs Messer and a Messer vs katana. Just because the length of the blade will be the decision maker based on the fighting technics I know. I can use a Messer like a katana if need be, but the extra inches I can't provide. A valid point. However, I’ve been taught to step in and close with a shorter weapon. |
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Post by Derzis on Dec 24, 2016 16:09:16 GMT
I would take an O-katana vs Messer and a Messer vs katana. Just because the length of the blade will be the decision maker based on the fighting technics I know. I can use a Messer like a katana if need be, but the extra inches I can't provide. A valid point. However, I’ve been taught to step in and close with a shorter weapon. If the opponent lets you. But I don't want to derail this topic. |
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 24, 2016 22:05:05 GMT
I would take an O-katana vs Messer and a Messer vs katana. Just because the length of the blade will be the decision maker based on the fighting technics I know. I can use a Messer like a katana if need be, but the extra inches I can't provide. A valid point. However, I’ve been taught to step in and close with a shorter weapon. Yea same here. The hand guard makes this easier to do. That extra protection goes a long way when it's implemented |
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Post by Derzis on Dec 25, 2016 12:11:51 GMT
Just 1 offtopic question. All short sword fighters were taught how to "enter" in long sword fighter space, I get it. But what was taught the long sword fighter about how to prevail in a fight against a shorter blade opponent nobody knows / cares. Is because we tend to overestimate our "shorter blade fighting" skills?
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 25, 2016 20:45:41 GMT
I think it's more about the idea that at one time, an opponent with a longer blade was somewhat inevitable, so you had to do something in order to try gain some level of control in the situation. Much like learning to defend against a gun or knife when empty handed. Logically, the empty hand person is at a huge disadvantage and isn't likely to be the winner in the outcome, but a guy has to do whatever I can, doesn't he? I imagine it's similar to that. Or even similar to the things you learn when surviving a plane crash or bear attack. As opposed to seeing it as a sure fire way to win, I see it as a last resort
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Post by howler on Dec 25, 2016 21:51:41 GMT
Just 1 offtopic question. All short sword fighters were taught how to "enter" in long sword fighter space, I get it. But what was taught the long sword fighter about how to prevail in a fight against a shorter blade opponent nobody knows / cares. Is because we tend to overestimate our "shorter blade fighting" skills? Good point. Reach (provided proper execution of) is a pretty large and fundamental advantage. A short sword user MUST somehow "enter", and the long sword fighter knows this, and would/should act accordingly. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 25, 2016 22:26:12 GMT
Just 1 offtopic question. All short sword fighters were taught how to "enter" in long sword fighter space, I get it. But what was taught the long sword fighter about how to prevail in a fight against a shorter blade opponent nobody knows / cares. Is because we tend to overestimate our "shorter blade fighting" skills? I rarely teach people with a "normal sized" sword explicitly how to fight against short weapons (short sword, dagger, unarmed), but they should learn this from being a sparring partner to oppose such a short weapon. Sometimes, some explicit instruction is useful. For long weapons (longer than usual sword, spear, other polearms), how to best use your reach to advantage is a key part of fighting with such weapons, and what to do against a short weapon (by default, one might assume a normal-sized sword) should be a major part of the curriculum. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 25, 2016 22:47:27 GMT
I am not saying that distance isn’t important by any means, but all is not lost because the lack of it. Here’s a video I made with my neighbour. I felt like horsing around checking out my new dagger. I am very much out of practice since I lost my sparring partner some years back and with no warm up it shows, nevertheless I enjoyed myself. We had never worked together and in addition to being out of practice I took it slow to avoid an accident. Even so there were a couple of mishaps. The second takeaway appears delayed because his sword hung between us. Once I applied too much pressure (I was working pressure points) taking Claudio down and he pulled me afterwards. That wasn’t hard for him to do since he has about a 50 kg weight advantage. In a real situation I would have followed, falling on him and finished him on the ground where he had a distinct disadvantage with the long sword. Initially we had a false start as he still wasn’t convinced that he was supposed to hit me (if he could). And there was that time I caught him in the temple with the quillon. It all made me wish that I still had a partner and a place to work out. Those were the days.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 26, 2016 0:50:22 GMT
Nothing is lost but nothing says that knowing how to "step in" will be successful just because you were taugh so.
Back on topic, interesting video about the way you differentiate a sword from a messer. A tactical katana is a possible messer with katana blade geometry? Or more general, any tactical sword should be actually tactical messer with blade geometry type "x"?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 26, 2016 1:10:31 GMT
A tactical katana is a messer with messer blade geometry and katana fittings. A tactical sword is a messer with messer blade geometry and messer fittings (and black, aand a laser).  |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 26, 2016 3:52:23 GMT
...way you differentiate a sword from a messer. A tactical katana is a possible messer with katana blade geometry? Or more general, any tactical sword should be actually tactical messer with blade geometry type "x"? Don’t forget the nagel, or nail if you will. Where is it on a tactical katana? Or cross guard for that matter? |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 26, 2016 9:34:04 GMT
You could call the tsuba a "roundabout nagel".
I think a modern "tactical" sword doesn't need a crossguard because you probably don't fight against another swordsman (or at all).
A messer is not differentially hardened in the katana way, so it needs no niku.
My TH 5160 Hanwei Tactical Katana with sandwitch grip/tang is very close to a messer, but to a "Langes Messer", not to a bigger "Kriegsmesser".
Afaik a few Lange Messer/Bauernwehren didn't have a swordlike crossguard too.
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