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Post by jammer on Nov 28, 2016 18:22:37 GMT
There is no way of learning sword and buckler from 1.33 alone, because it assumes a skill level that it does not contain the lessons for. So we can only learn an interpretation of 1.33 based on our existing experience.
So we can learn itto ryu 1.33, Niten ichi ryu 1.33, or kendo 1.33, or modern fencing 1.33, or muso jikiden 1.33.
What we can't learn is the swordsmanship of 1.33, as its antecedents are lost.
So let's see it in its real context, as the earliest written example of a western swordsmanship treatise that should be studied by experts in the field, not turned into a fake martial art.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 28, 2016 18:31:44 GMT
It's the martial art of fighting a duel with sword and buckler, why is this a "fake"? I.33 is not the complete reproduction of this art, only a help for teachers. Parts are lost, but the guys who try and train this for years now have the experience to learn from the book.
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Post by MOK on Nov 28, 2016 20:46:34 GMT
You two have completely lost me at this point...
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 29, 2016 12:19:27 GMT
The fighting system of I.33 was rediscovered as a real fighting system only a few decades ago. Until then there were centuries without people fighting or training with sword and buckler. I.33 is not showing the complete system, esp. not many basics of swordfighting, it's made for fencers who knew such things already. So the people who revived this system had to figure out many of the basics, that I.33 premises, and they are still learning and sometimes they reconceive earlier interpretations of parts of I.33.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 2, 2016 17:43:19 GMT
But we *are* experts in the field. That's the whole point. The leaders in this sub-set of HEMA work with museums, historical recreation, sword makers and so on to help flesh out the art. I just got back from the Berlin Buckler Bouts where a mix of martial arts experts, archaeologists, historians and general buffs like myself compared notes and fought more or less non stop for two days with blunt steel and sharps to see how different interpretations hash out. My own group meets twice a week for this locally. That's the whole point here. Nobody is going to be able to recreate 100% of their martial art or claim some mastery. It's about gleaning what we can from this source as applied to the physical realities of simulated combat.
I would not recommend it, or indeed longsword, for someone looking for a nice practical martial art. You have to go into this knowing that much of what you first learn will be moribund within a year or two of learning it. But on the plus side when you unlock a riddle it's a wonderful experience.
For someone looking for a historical western martial art that's relatively straight-forward, appropriate within modern legal frameworks and not subject to endless interpretations, I'd suggest the cane and staff arts from Bartitsu to La Canne and of course Jugo do Pau. With a walking stick or good cane (I recommend Purple Heart Armory's), you can deliver ferocious blows to adversaries and outmatch most unarmed and even some armed assailants. A length of hardwood is one of the most underestimated of weapons in the modern world, and it's one you can legally take almost anywhere. Even onto commercial airlines.
Actually the art *was* recorded in considerable detail. That's what I.33 is. The antecedents are another matter, but to some extent can be understood by reverse-engineering the text and adding what we know from other sources, art and of course endless testing. That is speculative of course, but those working on sword and shield have been able to at least throw doubt on popular interpretations that have been unfortunately repeated in many academic works.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 18:12:15 GMT
Now this is getting interesting. Please add links to full journals and manuals for download, mabye interpretations too? Would support your point...😜
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 2, 2016 18:37:15 GMT
I.33 and most of the longsword texts are on wiktenauer. But as an example, take one of I.33's classic moves--the overbind shield strike. It's well illustrated from both sides in many contexts in the text, and on the surface it appears to be pretty simple. The problem is it rarely seems to work in freeplay. You can certainly bind down on an adversary's blade, but in the old method you'd run clockwise and in so doing move your own weapon off line and have to execute a shield strike before re-engaging and cutting. It simply hasn't worked well in play, which suggests we've been missing something. The latest interpretation, which I learned from Roland this weekend, is to overbind straight down to ensure the blade remains a threat. At the full overbind point, the blade is poised to thrust to the gut. If the defender accepts the bind to protect his gut and execute a counter, you then strike and cut to the gill line as shown before he can act. If he pushes down, you again shield strike and cut. This idea seems to be working better, though as always it's likely to be tuned more esp. with three dimensions in play.
The idea being that we work with the text's plays in all sorts of ways until we find a way to make them function while still fitting the text and illustrations. Then we test, rinse and repeat. In this way, it's hoped, I.33 will slowly emerge. Or at least pieces of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 23:41:17 GMT
But we *are* experts in the field. That's the whole point. The leaders in this sub-set of HEMA work with museums, historical recreation, sword makers and so on to help flesh out the art. I just got back from the Berlin Buckler Bouts where a mix of martial arts experts, archaeologists, historians and general buffs like myself compared notes and fought more or less non stop for two days with blunt steel and sharps to see how different interpretations hash out. My own group meets twice a week for this locally. That's the whole point here. Nobody is going to be able to recreate 100% of their martial art or claim some mastery. It's about gleaning what we can from this source as applied to the physical realities of simulated combat. I would not recommend it, or indeed longsword, for someone looking for a nice practical martial art. You have to go into this knowing that much of what you first learn will be moribund within a year or two of learning it. But on the plus side when you unlock a riddle it's a wonderful experience. For someone looking for a historical western martial art that's relatively straight-forward, appropriate within modern legal frameworks and not subject to endless interpretations, I'd suggest the cane and staff arts from Bartitsu to La Canne and of course Jugo do Pau. With a walking stick or good cane (I recommend Purple Heart Armory's), you can deliver ferocious blows to adversaries and outmatch most unarmed and even some armed assailants. A length of hardwood is one of the most underestimated of weapons in the modern world, and it's one you can legally take almost anywhere. Even onto commercial airlines. Actually the art *was* recorded in considerable detail. That's what I.33 is. The antecedents are another matter, but to some extent can be understood by reverse-engineering the text and adding what we know from other sources, art and of course endless testing. That is speculative of course, but those working on sword and shield have been able to at least throw doubt on popular interpretations that have been unfortunately repeated in many academic works. Hi Cosmoline! Having seen a little bit of what you've shared of your group's sword and buckler, it does look quite nice. It's clear you guys are working hard to make this a real study and not just arbitrarily twirling weapon simulators around. Like it or not, "expert" is a loaded term. Most people should realize that it's relative, but that really only goes so far. I may very well be one of the foremost practitioners of my art in my city, possibly county but it would be absurd to attach or allow the label of expertise onto what I do, as hard as I work towards it. I'm not chastising you there or intending to say whether you are or you aren't, but there's a good deal of baggage that comes along with certain words. It's just how it is, unless you really want to dilute expertise to a point where the words stop meaning anything real. You may very well have a practical art though. You don't need an unbroken line of succession or deep competence in an art for it to be practical, it just has to be usable and transmittable. If you can do it, and get someone else to be able to do it, you have a practical art. You may not have a VERY deep art, or an authentic art, but you can easily have a practical one. The authenticity part is very difficult to assert, there's a little more to that part and at least on that angle I think I'm seeing where jammer is coming from. I don't even really like that word because it also carries certain baggage but I'm at a loss to think of a similar word that does the job. Actually, I really don't like it because of what it can imply and that's not the intent here. Cheers
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 3, 2016 23:05:46 GMT
I was referring to Jammer's reference to "experts in the field." I guess I'm not sure who he thinks the "experts in the field" of I.33 or other western historical combat are. Roland, who runs the Buckler Bouts, routinely gives lectures to museum staff and academics about how the period weapons may have been used. And indeed there are plenty of academics working with affiliated groups. This past weekend I was crossing blades with academics, archaeologists, and other professionals in addition to a brace of wildlings from Ireland. I would never count myself as any great international expert, but locally if you wanted to know about how medieval swords may have been used based on the surviving sources I can and have done that. Our local group performs many demonstrations and runs a medieval village in the summer with martial displays. So I'm a local junior bird man "expert" and there are national and international experts above me from a wide range of backgrounds. I am *not* a swordsman or martial artist. I'm an amateur historian who has studied German longsword and I.33. I think there may just be some misunderstanding here. We are not trying to turn this into a fake martial art or some kind of practical sword art. We are trying to understand medieval sword fighting based on the fight books and other period sources by coming up with interpretations and testing them through a variety of methods ranging from gear-light slowplay to full contact fighting in HEMA gear. Even the formal competitions are ultimately intended to give us a better understanding of the sources, though there's a lot of argument as to which approach is better. It's the difference between being inside of a living martial art and studying a long-vanished one. I study medieval sword fighting, but I'm not a medieval sword fighter. I am interested in what they did, not so much in what I personally can do. And while there are many genuine martial artists studying different aspects of HEMA, there are also many who aren't martial artists. Some groups do have a hierarchy of ranks, but they are ranked as "scholars," not as practitioners or masters. Really, if someone wanted to recreate the full training of a late medieval knight, he would have to be training regularly from a young age in all the equestrian arts as well as fighting with a range of weapons in harness and blossfetchen. The texts tell us this expressly. What we do in the modern world is try to understand this as the sources describe. And this helps flesh out the reality of the period and the experiences of those who lived it. Which seems rather simple, until you realize how much gross misinformation there is about medieval combat. Many sources still claim you'd need a machine to lift you into your saddle and that swords of the period were kept dull and heavy. So we have our work cut out for us ;-) Some are operating within academia, others as living historians and others as competitors on the sporting side of HEMA. But we're all trying to educate ourselves and the public. If you want to see what we're doing, I urge you to attend the next Western Martial Arts Weekend in Wisconsin. You will have the opportunity to meet, study with and train with people from many backgrounds who have been working on these topics for decades now. From the mysteries of Spanish rapier to Italian longsword. These are the experts on period sword fighting I know of. wmaw.us/2015/
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Post by jammer on Dec 7, 2016 18:03:58 GMT
Cosmoline, hello, niten ichi ryu practitioners are much better "experts in the field".
NOTE: Edited to remove personal attack on another member. Moderation Team
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 7, 2016 18:53:28 GMT
;-) Well you or they are absolutely welcome to cross blades with me or come to an event and cross blades with folks a lot better than me. As I've stated, I'm no martial artist or swordsman. I'm a person who studies historical sword fighting techniques. So I *should* be easy to beat. We can do it with no gear or full gear or something in between. But it must be with steel--that's my only restriction. I'm going to be at Racine in the fall and may be at VISS in Vancouver early next year. I'm also thinking of doing the stage fighting seminar Sword Experience in Salem in the spring. If you're in Anchorage I'm available most anytime. We can go do it in the snow at the park for added effect, but only if it's not too icy. I may also be at the next Swordsquatch in Seattle. If you're in Europe I'll be going to the next Berlin bouts probably in November 2018 and hope to transit by train. In any case we should be able to arrange a venue. You've said a lot of stuff, including claiming what I do is "made up bullsemprini." Consider this a martial challenge my friend. If we do it here we can go to Moose's Tooth afterwards for beer and some of the finest pie available. Or you can abstain from the challenge and eat some humble pie.
You and the ichi ryu folks are absolutely welcome at any HEMA event! Many in HEMA come from JSA backgrounds, and have much insight to offer. That's what I love about this stuff. There are no doors slammed in faces on our side. All are welcome. All fight. So come on over! The Racine event is a blast. You can study the texts and bring your own insights to the interpretation. Two swords should translate well to S&B. IIRC you mentioned you know Matt Easton. He certainly knows my guy Roland and can direct you to events over in that part of the world. In HEMA we are welcoming to all those who put their money where their mouth is. Those who armchair semprini or claim to be too lethal to fight--not so much.
For example--a Kendo fellow showed up at the Swordsquatch tournament a few months back. Never did any HEMA and had no gear. Did I make fun of him for not knowing what to bring? No I did not. I let him use my full kit and rooted for him. He did really well with the synthetic longswords getting hand tags, but didn't know how to deal with the mid distance winden as well. Still it was a fine showing for someone new to longsword. Come to Racine and you will receive an equally warm welcome, though it is limited to western arts. If you challenge folks to a fight they *will* fight you. Usually right then and there. And if you raise a dispute about technique, swords will be in hands very quickly to explore the point further. Bring your sword and buckler or longsword and show us how it's done.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 7, 2016 23:51:10 GMT
;-) Well you or they are absolutely welcome to cross blades with me or come to an event and cross blades with folks a lot better than me. As I've stated, I'm no martial artist or swordsman. I'm a person who studies historical sword fighting techniques. So I *should* be easy to beat. We can do it with no gear or full gear or something in between. But it must be with steel--that's my only restriction. I'm going to be at Racine in the fall and may be at VISS in Vancouver early next year. I'm also thinking of doing the stage fighting seminar Sword Experience in Salem in the spring. If you're in Anchorage I'm available most anytime. We can go do it in the snow at the park for added effect, but only if it's not too icy. I may also be at the next Swordsquatch in Seattle. If you're in Europe I'll be going to the next Berlin bouts probably in November 2018 and hope to transit by train. In any case we should be able to arrange a venue. You've said a lot of stuff, including claiming what I do is "made up bullsemprini." Consider this a martial challenge my friend. If we do it here we can go to Moose's Tooth afterwards for beer and some of the finest pie available. Or you can abstain from the challenge and eat some humble pie. Bravo Cosmoline. An excellent and gentlemanly response to a rude and out-of-line comment.
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Post by Croccifixio on Dec 7, 2016 23:57:19 GMT
Burned.
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Post by Derzis on Dec 8, 2016 0:21:47 GMT
Cosmoline, hello, niten ichi ryu practitioners are much better "experts in the field" than the made up bullsemprini you spin out, epsecially the touchy feely bullsemprini swordsmanship you make videos of. Man! Dead in 1 second. Experts in what? ALL practitioners, no matter their level? 2-3 years take them to learn how to keep their swords in hands correctly during the katas. This doesn't sound "expert" in my book. So please explain how any Niten ichi ryu practitioners are experts in the field - since you like to generalize. Cosmoline is showing his videos and his research. Respect his effort if not his work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 3:09:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 6:51:38 GMT
That was an insensitive coincidence comment. I have practiced Niten Itchi Ryu to an advanced Shinken Practitioner level. And I would still be wary if duelling even a beginner of ANY art. I would be wary about fighting through any means with anybody, even a 4 year old kid. As a fighter and MA guy, the first thing you should have been taught should have been caution. jammer, HEMA is based on past scripts and manuals, the very same way Niten Itchi Ryu survived mostly.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 8, 2016 17:26:36 GMT
Understand, martial challenges are a custom in HEMA when there's a dispute over technique or just curiosity to see the outcome. In this case Jammer has expressed, in no uncertain terms, his belief that everything I do is bullsemprini. It may be. But if it is, then he ought to be able to win handily. Heck, he's claimed his own JSA folks are actually better experts on medieval German swordplay than people who study and practice those arts. So he ought to be able to take up sword and buckler and best me. But I'll let him use his own tools--short of pole arms of course. We can meet on a cliff in the wind. It will be just like "Highlander"! As suggested by the invite to beer afterwards, this is a *friendly* challenge. I have yet to injure anyone in or out of gear. The purpose is not for public denunciation if I win, but for the personal enlightenment of both parties. There is no official, no score. Just the truth of steel. Three passes are customary, so this won't be any kind of fight to exhaustion.
As far as injury, we both sign mutual prospective waivers and the custom and minimize risk. If we go full speed full intent then we wear gear that can take thrusts and cuts. If we opt for measured pace and no gear, we don't complete our blows with force. I've done both many times in different events and in practice, though I prefer no gear. Steel blunts are customary. Wood too often breaks bones, and plastic is no good. We can opt to allow ringen or not. For people who don't know each other it's usually good to forgo the grappling to prevent broken bones. Both cutting and thrusting are permitted. As is buckler bashing and the offensive use of pommels and crossguards.
I consider myself a mid-level practitioner with sword and buckler. It's the nature of the I.33 beast that we're always trying to parse out what the text is saying. Recreations of plates as shown in the videos I've posted are extremely slow motion and focused on interpreting illustration and text from the early 14th century. But what Jammer may not realize is that we also fight. All the time. I've fought people in different types of events all over the country and overseas. I just got back from a two day sixteen hour session of bouts in Berlin where I fought dozens of people including some wildlings from Ireland. We all fight. There's no holding back due to belts or status or bullsemprini. John Clemens pulled that crap and is now persona non grata in the community.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 18:11:22 GMT
Ok in all seriousness, there's a marked difference between getting together to explore / demonstrate a system of fighting, and squaring off to see who's is bigger and if you are intending to stand in front of someone else with a weapon it's a really good idea to know which situation you are getting yourself into.
There's a big misunderstanding here, and its not jammer saying he's a better German midieval swordsman than you or your guys or that his understanding of i33 is more historically accurate than your interpretation, you're setting yourself up for a legit duel which is silly as all get out for a forum spat.
The smartest thing would have been to laugh him off as irrelevent. You're kind of squatting on two camps - you say you don't care about being a swordsman and are just in it for the historical curiosity, but if that's the case what he says shouldn't matter.
Showing up to other people's events in order to clown on them is really sad. I can't imagine jammer's sensei offered precious instruction so he could take it to bully other people with it.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 8, 2016 18:44:58 GMT
I'm genuinely curious, and there's no way to know without testing. The fight is the test. There's no animus here, just a desire to know if we are truly as off base as he brazenly claims. A martial challenge is not a duel. We're not trying to kill each other to determine God's will. We're exploring an argument over sword techniques within agreed-upon parameters but with martial intent. I've done similar fights and sometimes I win and sometimes I get my ass handed to me. Either way it's useful information for both parties. Plus fine dining afterwards, my treat! I've never walked away from one of these kerfuffles without making a new friend.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 18:59:14 GMT
I understand your position. However, saying there's no holding back, but then saying there's dinner afterwards are contradictory. Those parameters you are counting on and assuming aren't going to be there.
Almost fully positive nothing will come of this, but its a game of brinksmanship and sooner or later this kind of thinking will get someone hurt, especially if they think they are going into the friendly kind of martial challenges we used to read about on sfi without being able to read the currents.
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