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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 23, 2016 19:20:57 GMT
What HEMA longsword school had roots to the 70's? Even old Clemens didn't have a legitimate claim that far back from what I understand. And for longsword the gap should be more like five hundred years at a minimum. Three hundred is still modern era for rapier and smallsword. The thing about HEMA is you have to be a critical and independent thinker. Teachers are really just fellow scholars. It is NOT like other martial arts. Everyone ends up having to revamp, reboot and come at the text again and again. That may well mean learning other martial arts as well and going to different instructors on your own. Most folks in HEMA these days have backgrounds in a wide range of martial arts. And much of what we explore ends up in failure. You revisit, revise, reboot and try again. If you want something that's all been sorted out so you don't have to worry about it and can just follow what the leader says then HEMA is not for you.
As a point of comparison, I've been doing I.33 intesively now for two and a half years and am only just *starting* to get to the beginner level.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 21:46:23 GMT
SCA kicked off mid to late 60's, wouldn't be surprised if what he found came out of that.
Some teachers are better than others. You might end up with somebody who picked up a book yesterday, or you might end up working with one of the guys who did translation on the sources. There's a huge range of technical and pedagogical expertise - and someone who has something to offer in one aspect may not necessarily have it together in another.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 23, 2016 22:36:51 GMT
That might explain some of the problems. SCA is what it is but they don't really do much historical longsword that I know of. The heavies were set up before the current HEMA revival took hold and have one foot firmly in fantasy land. Which is fine, but really does limit what they can do. Their rapier work is better. But in any case I think you have to take responsibility for being your own teacher in HEMA. Working with different people and keeping an open mind. Always going back to the source to see how far you've strayed. It's a huge challenge.
But the up side is you're exploring history nobody may have looked at in hundreds of years. And you can personally end up changing the way the art is interpreted. Which isn't likely to happen with an established martial art. It suits my own interests in a way an established martial art never would. There's just a ton of interesting stuff going on all over the world. There's everything from slow speed work with actual sharp swords to full speed formal HEMA competitions. Everyone is always crossing blades. Unlike for example some of the more staid Asian sword arts which seem to be fairly hierarchical and rigid. I remember reading about someone getting kicked out of their dojo for going to visit a European sword class. Which is just insane in my mind. And there seems to be a notion that you have to pass a formal series of steps before you can fight someone else. The great thing about HEMA is that everyone is always fighting everyone. It may be crappy fighting. It often is. But we do fight all the time. We'll even fight the kendo and kenjutsu guys! There's always more to learn. And I've noticed some east-to-west crossings lately. Had some Kendo guys in the Swordsquatch match a few weeks ago. One of them borrowed my armor and did pretty well in the nylon tournament. He was really good at keeping his measure and nailing the opponent's hands. Not so good in the winden and ringen unfortunately so he got eliminated. I don't think they're used to getting tackled in kendo. Great folks though.
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Post by jammer on Oct 10, 2016 17:59:20 GMT
SCA kicked off mid to late 60's, wouldn't be surprised if what he found came out of that. Some teachers are better than others. You might end up with somebody who picked up a book yesterday, or you might end up working with one of the guys who did translation on the sources. There's a huge range of technical and pedagogical expertise - and someone who has something to offer in one aspect may not necessarily have it together in another. I meant to call it rapier (a passion of mine) not German longsword, I confused the style with the conversation I had earlier.
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 10, 2016 22:30:38 GMT
You might want to revisit things if you're still interested in rapier work. There are some really good rapier specialists out there now. They're quite a bit ahead of us medievalists. Devon Boorman, Sean Hayes, Ton Puey are some I've seen in action. Richard Marsden also does it in addition to his saber work.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 11, 2016 1:35:01 GMT
Piermarco "Pim" Terminiello does amazing Rapier work (I think he's won the most HEMA rapier tournaments). Look him up too.
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Post by Derzis on Oct 11, 2016 2:08:52 GMT
You can build a structure without a solid foundation, it just might not be very stable or robust. Do you want a tent or a palace? It depends on what he is looking for. One thing I've seen though: at one point things are running in circle, just because a martial art is not just techniques. Tent will be a good start, palace is up to him if he finds info regarding things beyond technicality
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 3:09:35 GMT
You can build a structure without a solid foundation, it just might not be very stable or robust. Do you want a tent or a palace? It depends on what he is looking for. One thing I've seen though: at one point things are running in circle, just because a martial art is not just techniques. Tent will be a good start, palace is up to him if he finds info regarding things beyond technicality It sure is a good place to start - who knows what they really want at the beginning? I think the best thing is to start, and if you have fun and enjoy it, keep going. Re-reading what I wrote, it comes across as being very outcome focused. It's good to be involved in both the process and the result. Goals are of course good, but it can be frustrating if you discover something and have to start over again. If you're also getting something out of doing and refining your methods, it's not so much of a shock when you tear it down and rebuild.
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Post by jammer on Oct 11, 2016 19:32:33 GMT
You might want to revisit things if you're still interested in rapier work. There are some really good rapier specialists out there now. They're quite a bit ahead of us medievalists. Devon Boorman, Sean Hayes, Ton Puey are some I've seen in action. Richard Marsden also does it in addition to his saber work. I felt there was a very large gap in the training between the current practice and the books. I felt the current practice was too much sport fencing, and the books were martial, but so vague. I did not feel that the two married well. I trained for the full period of 3 months, the school is the most famous school of hema I know of in the UK, where i was based. After the 3 months of one style they move onto another style, so it's a history type lesson, and what I have come to love about HEMA is the effort to maintain this history from virtually nothing extant. I was concurrently, and subsequently for some 4 years now, training in koryu. And so perhaps I was spoilt, or perhaps I now have a biased reference point, and am unfairly judging the HEMA lessons. In my Japanese swordsmanship lessons, I was constantly jolted to remember my mass placement, how to hold the sword most effectively (and most painfully, as the comfortable way is innefective), how to thrust, step-off line and thrust. Loads of sword control to strike at full pelt and stop the sword dead. A real depth to the training, I trained with soke in japan, and he came to my continent, and yet the only book I was ever directed towards was go rin no sho, everything taught through kata, and attendance. Face to face. As the empty handed arts are now at the fore, and BJJ and other modern interpretations are the best, and most evolved, self defence ways. The older ways are the best for sword and staff, spear, etc. Every method has a time, and this time is the time of the empty hand or the gun. The way of the sword is now only available to truly learn in maybe a dozen sword schools outside of Japan, but all of which are japanese in origin. within japan there are still many more schools, possibly 50 or more surviving today, some with less than twenty practitioners. There are no extant, pre gunpowder, schools of swordsmanship outside of the Japanese tradition, afaik. Certainly none from Europe. Although I truly wish it was different. I
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Post by jammer on Oct 11, 2016 19:45:53 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 11, 2016 22:05:57 GMT
Like I said you should probably revisit what folks are doing in HEMA rapier these days. Or even SCA rapier for that matter. Footwork, stance, form, control of the line, sword movement and all the nuances are taught face to face. There's also far more source material available and a better understanding of it. These guys are good fighters. I sure as heck can't touch them. Here's a little friendly sparring I got to witness first hand last year
That's of course an ongoing dispute within HEMA/WMA. The sport side of HEMA has fractured off somewhat from the historical side, though less so with rapier I think than with longsword. But there are all the options available. My own practice is very much rooted in the text with no emphasis on competition. We use no gear for the most part. Others are more into the sport. But surely that issue arises in *all* martial arts eventually. JSA seem to have a similar division between sword fighting study and sword competition.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 12, 2016 10:38:52 GMT
You might want to revisit things if you're still interested in rapier work. There are some really good rapier specialists out there now. They're quite a bit ahead of us medievalists. Devon Boorman, Sean Hayes, Ton Puey are some I've seen in action. Richard Marsden also does it in addition to his saber work. I felt there was a very large gap in the training between the current practice and the books. I felt the current practice was too much sport fencing, and the books were martial, but so vague. I did not feel that the two married well. I trained for the full period of 3 months, the school is the most famous school of hema I know of in the UK, where i was based. After the 3 months of one style they move onto another style, so it's a history type lesson, and what I have come to love about HEMA is the effort to maintain this history from virtually nothing extant. I was concurrently, and subsequently for some 4 years now, training in koryu. And so perhaps I was spoilt, or perhaps I now have a biased reference point, and am unfairly judging the HEMA lessons. In my Japanese swordsmanship lessons, I was constantly jolted to remember my mass placement, how to hold the sword most effectively (and most painfully, as the comfortable way is innefective), how to thrust, step-off line and thrust. Loads of sword control to strike at full pelt and stop the sword dead. A real depth to the training, I trained with soke in japan, and he came to my continent, and yet the only book I was ever directed towards was go rin no sho, everything taught through kata, and attendance. Face to face. As the empty handed arts are now at the fore, and BJJ and other modern interpretations are the best, and most evolved, self defence ways. The older ways are the best for sword and staff, spear, etc. Every method has a time, and this time is the time of the empty hand or the gun. The way of the sword is now only available to truly learn in maybe a dozen sword schools outside of Japan, but all of which are japanese in origin. within japan there are still many more schools, possibly 50 or more surviving today, some with less than twenty practitioners. There are no extant, pre gunpowder, schools of swordsmanship outside of the Japanese tradition, afaik. Certainly none from Europe. Although I truly wish it was different. I Europe and Japan =/= world. There are living traditions of various Silat styles, Krabbi Krabong, Kalaripayattu, Arnis/Kali/Eskrima, Chinese and Korean sword arts, Eastern European sabre arts, Middle Eastern and Central Asian swordsmanship styles, various Southeast Asian traditions kept alive in less connected areas with actual schools. Hell, you can't even say Japan is the most relevant. Sword combat and its use in warfare in Japan ended early compared to many countries (including European countries, many of whom kept the use of the sword for cavalry and navy well into the 20th century). I can name specific areas where swords are STILL very much in use for fighting (alongside guns of course). No knock on JSA of course, as I respect their ability to maintain traditional art forms well past practicality (especially sword related cultural traditions wherein it's one of the very few countries where swordsmithing and making is a profession). Just please don't ignore the rest of the world with the thinking that only HEMA and JSA are the relevant swordsmanship styles.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 26, 2016 19:16:51 GMT
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 26, 2016 22:20:21 GMT
Forgeng's is the one to get. His translation of I.33 routinely sells for $300 or more, so this is a huge bargain at the moment.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 26, 2016 22:42:02 GMT
The older one is much larger book - larger format and over twice as many pages. I don't know how much difference there is in the length of the manuscripts, but if there isn't much, it's possible that the shorter version (the new book) takes a hit in terms of format and readability. The older version is fine. I haven't seen the new one. Here is a review with a little comparison of the two: sacramentoswordfighting.com/2016/08/17/the-art-of-sword-combat-a-review/
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Oct 27, 2016 0:53:13 GMT
Meyer published two works (well, three if you want to get technical). One in 1568 and one in 1570. The 1570 Art of Combat has more or less everything in the 1568, and about three times as much additional material. This material is super useful, as it talks about the fundamentals of sword combat, properly defines all the strikes/guards/devices, and so on. More or less you can view the 1568 version as supplemental to the 1570 version. I wouldn't even call it a condensed version, as the bulk of the most useful material from 1570 doesn't even appear in it. TL/DR: Get this one: www.amazon.com/gp/product/1848327781/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1J1KTVT4U9ONW
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 28, 2016 4:35:03 GMT
Alright, older translation it is. Thanks everyone.
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Post by Cosmoline on Nov 1, 2016 18:04:59 GMT
Oh I'd get both! Seriously, when these suckers go out of print they tend to get really pricey. If you're getting into Meyer you'll want everything you can get your hands on. All of this as well: hroarr.com/articles-reviews/research-projects/meyer-longsword/Even the outdated interpretations are important to understand. When you take up this study, you have to be a scholar. So that means as much cross-referencing and input as you can find. It's more like putting together a PhD thesis than it is like learning an ordinary martial art.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Nov 2, 2016 19:52:32 GMT
Darn it Cosmoline! You're not doing my wallet any favors....
Actually, in a way you are: if the price is going to go up, then I'm actually saving money by spending it right now! Just got to keep telling myself this....
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Post by Cosmoline on Nov 2, 2016 22:33:52 GMT
I just remember having to pay $300 for a I.33 translation that originally sold for a small fraction of that. It's getting better but the HEMA publishing universe is full of strange tales of the unexpected.
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