|
Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 22, 2016 18:40:10 GMT
I've been buying a couple of different practice weapons (so far I have two polymer tomahawks, two "rubber" knives, and a polymer European arming sword). Ever since I was able to pick up a stick I've been sparring with my brother, and with the new practice weapons we've lately been sparring a lot more. However, I really want to learn some historic fighting techniques. I want to learn East Asian martial arts eventually, but I'd like to start with European martial arts. I want to get some historic fighting books, but I'm not sure where to start. Which books should I be getting, and where can I get them? I've heard of the Codex Wallerstein, but I can't tell which of the versions sold on Amazon would be the one to get. I want an unabridged version, as close to the original copy as possible, with the original illustrations - in other words, the only thing changed from the actual manuscript is the language (my German is extremely basic, so I doubt I could read the original text). Also, I am reading odingaard1's Into to Italian Longsword sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/14434/intro-italian-longsword-1 I'm not really interested in modern techniques for Medieval and Renaissance martial arts. Anyway, thanks in advance for the help.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,625
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 22, 2016 19:07:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 22, 2016 19:59:43 GMT
Thanks for the links zenhydra - those look like great books, just not exactly what I was looking for.
I should have been more clear. I'm looking for good translations of historic fighting books, specifically ones written in the European Middle Ages. I edited the title of this thread to clarify.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 22, 2016 20:12:50 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Aug 23, 2016 8:27:55 GMT
Wiktenauer
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 23, 2016 9:10:22 GMT
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Aug 23, 2016 9:14:29 GMT
Guy Windsor's Veni Vadi Vici is an excellent transcription, translation and commentary of Philippo Vadi's De Arte Gladiatoria Dimicandi. It makes a great companion for Tom Leoni's translation of Fiore dei Liberi's Fior di Battaglia, another seminal work. Both are unillustrated, but high quality scans of the historical manuscripts are freely available on Wiktenauer for both Fiore and Vadi. For the German tradition I might recommend Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword and Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Arts of Combat (sword-and-buckler, wrestling and armoured combat) by David Lindholm and Peter Svärd, which likewise contain both a transcription and a translation of the original text, along with commentary and modern illustrations. All of those should be available on Amazon and other online bookstores. I'd also like to note that you won't get very far with just a straight up translation of the historical works! They were written for a specific audience and are honestly too grounded in their cultural context for a modern reader to really understand what they're getting at without modern annotations and explanations, especially if you aren't already well versed in the theory and practice of historical fencing.
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Aug 23, 2016 9:26:08 GMT
It's a good translation. I don't think it's easy to learn from. Yeah - I have it, too, and aside from some of the more pragmatic instructions (like how to rob peasants without killing them ) it can be somewhat hard to understand the finer points of what's actually being advised if you don't already know what it's talking about, as often important technical subtleties are just taken for granted and at other times the text can seem unnecessarily fussy with minor details that appear well nigh insignificant without prior practical experience. The illustrations sometimes help and sometimes don't. It's good source material, but really not a good entry level textbook at all.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Aug 23, 2016 17:02:52 GMT
A *huge* number of sources are available for free with free translations here: wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_PageI agree Wallerstein is not too great as an overview. We've mostly used it for tricks and methods such as the "ice cream scoop of death." It's really an assemblage of bits and pieces from various sources. Most of my focus is on I.33 these days, which is rewarding but also inherently frustrating because so much may never be known about it. For longsword I've mostly worked with the house book, which has some nice gloss but no illustrations. My local group decided on that as the source many years before I got involved, I believe because it was the main focus for Christian Tobler who helped my teachers get started. For someone starting out I'd suggest Joachim Meyer's 16th century text. It's beautifully illustrated, has detailed descriptions of all the moves including footwork and doesn't get as much love as it should. Somewhere along the line it was deemed not sufficiently martial, which is odd since none of us are going to fight wars with these things. It is what Liechtenauer evolved into. And there's an ocean of detail yet unexplored in it. Every plate has layers of meaning. Like one of those old alchemy formulas. Supplemented with Falkner, Ringeck and von Danzig it would make a very nice foundation for decades of study. Also studying Meyer is a license to wear puffy pants! wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Me%C3%BFer
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 26, 2016 17:35:01 GMT
Great stuff folks. Thank you everyone.
Looks like what I really need is two copies of each book: a modern one focused on actually teaching the moves, and an exact (as exact as translations can get anyway) translation for the historical value. The books you linked look like great choices, I'll have to pick up a couple of them right away.
Which teacher would be best to start with? Fiore? Italian vs. German style - what are the differences? I'd like to try both out. Right now I want to learn single-handed sword, bastard sword, buckler, dagger, spear, maybe some wrestling and a few other weapons: just the Medieval basics.
|
|
SeanF
Member
Posts: 1,293
|
Post by SeanF on Aug 27, 2016 6:21:01 GMT
Be very careful about books with modern instruction. Most of them are written by academic types with a poor grasp of combat. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, as going at the manuals raw will also be difficult to interpret on your own.
The Fiore (usually referred to as Italian) system is simpler, the German work is more extensive but much more technical and difficult to figure out. Later period German, (aka Joachim Meyer) is much more detailed and has clearer instructions for learning but is also much longer and denser, which can be unapproachable for a beginner.
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Aug 27, 2016 7:19:44 GMT
Well, you want people who show their work and the material they're working with - transcription, translation and commentary/annotations. All the books I mentioned are like that.
For modern instruction based on the historical works rather than direct translations of them, specifically in Italian styles (Fiore, Capo Ferro), Guy Windsor's Mastering the Art of Arms series is excellent - and a much better starting point for a modern practitioner than the original manuals.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 27, 2016 7:54:32 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 11:23:09 GMT
Well, ever since I received a 'pommel to the noggin' ', I have not been too keen on historical manuscripts, although there are some Asian ones that are, like, awesome examples of techniques back in the day. In my local museum and in the one in UAE and Saudia, there are plenty of Asian Arab manuals that are pretty helpful considering even modern day standards. I suggest trying to get more modern interpretations of the techniques, preferably in DVD form. Try sites like budointernational.com etc, though confirm from someone about the site before buying.... I would appreciate knowledge regarding legitimacy of budointernational.com too.
And, last but not the least, if it is SOUTH eastern martial arts you are interested in, I can provide with a few examples of stuff for your aid.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Aug 27, 2016 22:45:20 GMT
Not otherwise mentioned, you can also check lulu.com. Lots of independent and individuals use this medium to make and sell their manuscripts. Lot of the WMA stuff resides in their catalog.
Don't buy a heap of books at first blush, because if you buy a few lulu will keep sending you better and better discount codes to coax you back in (we're talknin 45% off, no limits). :)
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Aug 28, 2016 1:22:11 GMT
Second Christian Tobler's work for German longsword in general. Guy Windsor has years of material published on the Fiore front. There's a ton of good stuff from others as well. More and more every year it seems. If you get dedicated to it you should associate with a primary school. This helps get you oriented and in making contacts in the HEMA world. Plan on attending some conventions and tournaments if possible.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Sept 19, 2016 19:29:27 GMT
The further you go back in history, the more likely you are to find effective mechanical weapons based martial arts. But, annoyingly, the less likely you are to find general literacy in the population, and even less likely to find reliable ways of reproducing knowledge, such as printing presses, books were extremely rare etc. The skills of these times were handed down locally from senior to junior, in person, not in books.
This principle applies even more acutely to the martial arts, where secrecy of technique was paramount for effectiveness. Most advanced techniques were highly unlikely to be written down.
All the manuscripts are available online, so see for yourself how much you can learn from them. Not very much is my opinion.
Learning an established art is better imo, judo and BJJ are common arts. Kendo is a good start, in weapons. Start there, see where you go.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Sept 22, 2016 0:36:10 GMT
Oh there are a ton of advanced techniques detailed in the longsword texts. We have a considerable number of German fight books at our disposal now that explain hidden strikes and how to destroy the common buffalo. And there's much to be learned from them. It's easier in some respects if you rely on a modern instructor from a living lineage, but you're also going to be bound to whatever that tradition has become. Kendo is a great example. A wonderful art, but they aren't too keen on letting students do the kind of crazy things we do ;-) With Kendo or other established systems, the masters know and you learn. When nobody really knows, the field is much more open to discovery and exploration. So it really boils down to what you want to get out of your pursuit. If you're looking for set rules and concepts that are well established within a formal system, HEMA is most likely not for you. If you're looking to explore old manuscripts for hints of a lost fighting system using a wide range of methods, it is.
|
|
|
Post by jammer on Sept 22, 2016 17:42:32 GMT
Hi cosmoline, I hope you are well.
I am of the opinion that a certain amount of experience is needed in,the admittedly variously flawed, extant martial arts before attempting to decipher old books.
it is not good, imo, to begin the martial journey from such a place that the student believes that they can buy a bunch of books and proceed from there with no prior experience.
If a student learns an extant martial art to a good level, and then wishes to dedicate themselves to an old text then fine. The lack of actual traffic in that direction is evidence of something wrong with those arts, imo.
As a point of pernsonl reference, I have attended a highly regarded HEMA school for the entire beginner programme in German longsword - 3 months. Despite me being an optomistic and willing student, the curiculum completely lacked any bedrock, IMO, and was so cursory of points, such as body mass placement, body mechanics and the general foundations, even how to hold and draw the sword. We spent the whole time playing "tag" with swords, and hypothesising. It was very obvious that there was no depth to it.
When I checked the lineage,it went back to the 1970s, and then there was a 300+ year gap in transmission. So no wonder.
Edit, this point is so tedious to continually make, and such a killjoy thing to say, that i am not going to make the point again on this board.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 21:58:14 GMT
You can build a structure without a solid foundation, it just might not be very stable or robust. Do you want a tent or a palace?
|
|