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Post by Derzis on Oct 3, 2016 1:21:17 GMT
Yes, we all know how good we are on world wide web on imagining fighting scenarios. But why in all scenarios the opponent is less skilled than the describer, it is beyond my imagination. And I am talking from a katana guy point of view. Without surprise factor in, like tricking your opponent, the longest sword wins it all day long. And to trick him you should know his style otherwise you might open for him a way to get you. That fighting video was showing the advantage of 2 edges blade too, not just the length or spectacle for the crowd. PS 4-5 inches + on O-katana blade are not making the sword unyieldable. It is quite good actually, it has even more authority especially if you need to bind or block or parry.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 3, 2016 5:36:14 GMT
Against a better armed guy with more skills than yourself there is not much fun in imagination.
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Post by howler on Oct 3, 2016 7:18:59 GMT
Yes, we all know how good we are on world wide web on imagining fighting scenarios. But why in all scenarios the opponent is less skilled than the describer, it is beyond my imagination. And I am talking from a katana guy point of view. Without surprise factor in, like tricking your opponent, the longest sword wins it all day long. And to trick him you should know his style otherwise you might open for him a way to get you. That fighting video was showing the advantage of 2 edges blade too, not just the length or spectacle for the crowd. PS 4-5 inches + on O-katana blade are not making the sword unyieldable. It is quite good actually, it has even more authority especially if you need to bind or block or parry. In all imagined scenarios, the opponents should be of equal skill, otherwise the result would be partly ascribed to the skill of the better wielder (unless, of course, the lesser wielder won) . I always thought (not being a katana master or anything) that the sword would be somehow measured to the individuals stature (like holding it golf club style, with the tip a few inches from the ground). It is my understanding that katana was mainly a dueling sword, with the fight being over in a few strokes (and seconds), like an old west gunfight in the movies, and that the swords were not meant for blade on blade/all day long, like longsword.
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Post by howler on Oct 3, 2016 7:22:30 GMT
Against a better armed guy with more skills than yourself there is not much fun in imagination. Unless you actually beat the better armed and skilled guy. Heck, in our imaginations we are swinging light sabers, saving the hottest babes and (drink).
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 3, 2016 7:25:29 GMT
Ah, it's been so easy... I should have watched Asad Javeeds Avatar.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 4, 2016 21:59:05 GMT
Yes, we all know how good we are on world wide web on imagining fighting scenarios. But why in all scenarios the opponent is less skilled than the describer, it is beyond my imagination. And I am talking from a katana guy point of view. Without surprise factor in, like tricking your opponent, the longest sword wins it all day long. And to trick him you should know his style otherwise you might open for him a way to get you. That fighting video was showing the advantage of 2 edges blade too, not just the length or spectacle for the crowd. PS 4-5 inches + on O-katana blade are not making the sword unyieldable. It is quite good actually, it has even more authority especially if you need to bind or block or parry. In all imagined scenarios, the opponents should be of equal skill, otherwise the result would be partly ascribed to the skill of the better wielder (unless, of course, the lesser wielder won) . I always thought (not being a katana master or anything) that the sword would be somehow measured to the individuals stature (like holding it golf club style, with the tip a few inches from the ground). It is my understanding that katana was mainly a dueling sword, with the fight being over in a few strokes (and seconds), like an old west gunfight in the movies, and that the swords were not meant for blade on blade/all day long, like longsword. This is exactly what I believe as well. The Japanese did not have the same values as Knights did. Different fightin system. In my opinion, duels and fights are nothing alike, but both require very different skills. Knights fought (though the long sword was also used for duels, when not wearing armour). While the katana did find itself used on the battlefield, it's was far from a preferred weapon for such matters. I still believe it found its favours in duels, instead. With a katana, you are a walking executioner, taking lives in one swing with no need for defense (as your opponent would be long dead before he could swing back). For this reason, it isn't not a very useful weapon in a fight against a knight or for sparring in HEMA. It's actually a pretty bad weapon for HEMA, as you don't exactly get the advantage of one hit kills with a blunt weapon.
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Post by Cosmoline on Oct 5, 2016 0:25:28 GMT
Longswords and katana don't cut in any radically different ways. They're sharp steel. The techniques overlap as well from what I've seen in the texts from both traditions. Longswords just have some advantage in length and double edge while the katana has some advantage in draw speed. Katana focuses less on bind work and perhaps more on hand and forearm hits. Both can strike with incredible speed. And either will kill you in the first strike if you don't cover your line.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 0:34:04 GMT
I've never heard of many long swords cutting through torsos. But I haven been given a whole lot of sources yet, so I could be wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 2:42:12 GMT
You'd probably have a challenge with a narrow blade like something along the lines of an XVIIIb (love that needly shape), but if you had a reasonably wide blade no reason why you couldn't. A balance point closer to the hand takes away from cutting power, but you can accommodate for that with practice, especially if you spend time learning to drop your body weight into the cut - you can get devastating power there.
You only need to cut enough to win, regardless of what sword you're using. Not every attack with a katana is meant to bissect or take parts off. The most fundamental basic attack is a shot to the head after all.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 3:44:34 GMT
That kind of misses my point. If you use many cuts, the opponent gains many chances. In Japanese duels, it was over in one cut. That's why the blade was honed so sharply, the DH blade with a brittle edge. The idea was to get it over with. This fundamental is lost in HEMA style sparring. It's why the longsword guys can always say the long sword is a superior weapon: because the circumstances in which they use swords is heavily designed around their weapon.
Now take the longsword to tameshigiri, you will see a properly made katana shine like a super nova.
I just get tired of all the HEMA guys bashing on the katana when they are setting it up on a test invented by the longsword. It's unfair and unjust. What does the katana have for defense these days? Mostly just fan boys who watch too much anime and martial arts movies while the longsword gets Skallagrim and Scholargladitoria
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 4:10:01 GMT
Keep in mind that he Japanese had a highly different set of values than Europeans did. If you matched a samurai against a knight with an equal skill level, the knight would win. But just winning wasn't the point about being a samurai. Though Miyomoto was incredibly different in this regard. His values weren't the same as many others at this time.
Japanese values weren't always placed on staying alive, so innovation wasn't the priority. But rather, the priority was refinery. To do it one way and be the best at doing it this one way. Miyomoto symbolized innovation, and how incredibly effective it was. But if we're gonna say something is better cause of innovation, then we might as well put down our swords and get guns. We should quit using ink when we could do it digitally. Why bother with a violin when you could do music with more accuracy when it's done electronically?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 5, 2016 5:38:30 GMT
Now take the longsword to tameshigiri, you will see a properly made katana shine like a super nova.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 5, 2016 7:36:46 GMT
I would argue that a typical katana beats a typical cut-and-thrust longsword on mat cutting any day of the week (in terms of cleanness and ease of cutting), but would lose against single edged medieval European weapons like messers and falchions (the latter two being much thinner generally than a typical katana).
That said, I agree that the katana is not a sword meant to survive blade on blade contact. It is a weapon of last resort, meant for a quick draw and direct cuts (unlike some overly complex hews in German longsword for instance). If I had 3 seconds to react to an attack, I'd choose a katana. If I has to kill someone in one motion from a sheathed position, a katana. If I had to decapitate or take off limbs, a katana (over a typical longsword of course).
In much the same way, I would take a spear, halberd, or other pole weapon in an open-field fight over a longsword. Longswords never really dominated battlefields. As a quick draw sidearm, they are IMO inferior to a katana (which in turn I feel is inferior to a short single-handed cut and thrust sword). As a battlefield, duelling, or blade vs blade weapon, sure they're better than katanas but they're not really the best at any one thing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 7:58:14 GMT
Good choices, Timo...show him. Nobody here is bashing the katana. We try to be realistic and objective...mostly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 11:45:39 GMT
Having actually used katana for blade-on-blade contact, their fragility is being massively over-stated. I've got a tanto that was looking pretty grisly after almost a year of being used for, among other things, hard blocks against katana strikes that were strong enough to seriously gouge up properly heat treated W2 tool steel. Here's a poor photo of some damage the edge of a very nice katana took - it was more of a roll than a chip out and I was still able to use the thing while I set up the appointment to get it repaired. That's one tiny spot in over 28" length. From the way people are talking you'd think the thing would have shattered like glass, especially since it's apparently "very poor steel" (mix of home-made and imported tamahagane). You guys really should try to avoid making statements that look like absolutes without having experience with them. If you've actually broken katana, that's one thing but it really sounds like you're repeating truthy feeling statements you read somewhere. Attachments:
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 13:12:14 GMT
Now take the longsword to tameshigiri, you will see a properly made katana shine like a super nova. Those mats are tiny. Nothing compared to the mats cut in competitions, using katana
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 13:13:34 GMT
Not sure why you Euro guys are so hell bent on saying why the long sword is superior in every aspect. I say each sword has its function. But apparently live and let live isn't good enough for you guys
This is what I mean by "katana bashing". You guys are like galaxy phone users. Cant stand that a different sword might be slightly better at a certain function?
Gonna toss out there that I never said a long sword couldn't cut mats. But you gotta really go out of your way to miss my points.
I also understand that you can make a long sword that is an even better cutter than a katana. But when you do this, can it thrust as well? I own the GSOW and it cuts better than any katana I've owned yes, but it's also a pathetic thruster.
Katana is a fantastic cut and thrust design optimized for offence. It's not a defence weapon
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 5, 2016 13:25:44 GMT
... better in a certain function: ... making sushi, muahahaahaaa. I like euros and katanas, usally euro-guys face the "unbeatable katana" stories and so we like to take revenge sometimes.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 13:27:17 GMT
Good choices, Timo...show him. Nobody here is bashing the katana. We try to be realistic and objective...mostly. Just cause you call it objective and realistic doesn't mean it is. The sword community is heavily biased.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 13:30:32 GMT
... better in a certain function: ... making sushi, muahahaahaaa. I like euros and katanas, usally euro-guys face the "unbeatable katana" stories and so we like to take revenge sometimes. And we (reasonable) katana guys gotta face the consequences. It's ridiculous. How many videos do we need to "dispel the katana myth"? We get it. The katana is crap for HEMA. But us admitting that is never good enough cause we got all the idiots representing us and bringing that bashing our way.
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