AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 5, 2016 13:41:03 GMT
Ok, lets all together mock the Macuahuitl.
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659 
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Oct 5, 2016 15:00:08 GMT
I've never heard of many long swords cutting through torsos. But I haven been given a whole lot of sources yet, so I could be wrong. The notion was popular enough that Shakespeare had MacBeth split a man in half as a testament to his battlefield prowess. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 15:02:27 GMT
Good choices, Timo...show him. Nobody here is bashing the katana. We try to be realistic and objective...mostly. Just cause you call it objective and realistic doesn't mean it is. The sword community is heavily biased. whohooo, keep it cool, son... i was in no way attacking you. Didnt you recognize? I used the terms "trying to be" and "mostly". But thats exactly the kind of reaction one might get... |
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Oct 5, 2016 15:19:02 GMT
Having actually used katana for blade-on-blade contact, their fragility is being massively over-stated. I've got a tanto that was looking pretty grisly after almost a year of being used for, among other things, hard blocks against katana strikes that were strong enough to seriously gouge up properly heat treated W2 tool steel. Here's a poor photo of some damage the edge of a very nice katana took - it was more of a roll than a chip out and I was still able to use the thing while I set up the appointment to get it repaired. That's one tiny spot in over 28" length. From the way people are talking you'd think the thing would have shattered like glass, especially since it's apparently "very poor steel" (mix of home-made and imported tamahagane). You guys really should try to avoid making statements that look like absolutes without having experience with them. If you've actually broken katana, that's one thing but it really sounds like you're repeating truthy feeling statements you read somewhere. I generally agree with this observation. I have personally experienced a nominally good quality DH katana catastrophically fail because of an unseen flaw, though no style of sword is immune to that happening (and anecdote isn't sufficient for any conclusions to be drawn). Fragile razor blades does seem to be a popular perception of the Japanese sword. It's also worth pointing out that blade-on-blade doesn't necessarily mean edge-on-edge. I generally try to avoid edge-on-edge contact whenever I can (in any discipline), especially in the vicinity of the optimal cutting surface. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 15:33:05 GMT
... better in a certain function: ... making sushi, muahahaahaaa. I like euros and katanas, usally euro-guys face the "unbeatable katana" stories and so we like to take revenge sometimes. And we (reasonable) katana guys gotta face the consequences. It's ridiculous. How many videos do we need to "dispel the katana myth"? We get it. The katana is crap for HEMA. But us admitting that is never good enough cause we got all the idiots representing us and bringing that bashing our way. My suggestion is to ignore it. Yes it is obnoxious that some dude with basically a year or whatever of actual training is held up as some kind of authority, yes the uninformed opinions of others denigrating arts you care about is grating, but there's no good to come from railing against it. Even if someone was willing to stop and think you're probably just going to be drowned out by the thousands of people who still think referencing throwing a pommel is the height of wit. Do your thing, train hard. At the end of the day only two opinions really matter: your own, and your teacher's. Occassionally you might find cool people, I've found a handful on here that are worth considering, that's a bonus. |
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,659
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Oct 5, 2016 16:09:26 GMT
For a while now I have wondered about the effectiveness of a katana/longsword hybrid. I know some messers superficially look like such a hybrid sword, but I think, generally speaking, there are some important differences in the blade geometry. I'm curious about the results of combining the thick, ridged sharpness of a katana with the protection and striking options of a longswords guard and pommel. I also think it would be interesting to pair a katana blade with a variation on a complex Renaissance-era hilt.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 5, 2016 16:29:38 GMT
The "Swiss Saber" comes close to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Oct 5, 2016 16:57:48 GMT
I've never heard of many long swords cutting through torsos. But I haven been given a whole lot of sources yet, so I could be wrong. There's no big difference in practical cutting power. They'll take limbs off and go through any light clothing and tissue. Swords are swords. The differences in steel make some difference in how well the edge holds up, with trade-offs either way. But it's not going to matter much on the business end whether your torso is bifurcated or your chest is just cut open. The skill of the maker and quality of materials is far more important than the particular design features. The longsword has some advantages in the longer blade and second edge, along with the crossguard. But the katana is without doubt faster on the draw and easier to tote around the palaces of the mighty without knocking over things. Each sword is a compromise of engineering. By emphasizing one aspect you necessarily decrease others. There's actually a lot of overlap in techniques. Sword fighting is 90% the same between systems, and frankly the tool matters less as you get better. Longswords do have some advantages engineered into them for harnessfetchen, particularly in later periods. But you can still do many of the same moves with other blades. Neither longswords nor katana are "defensive" weapons. They work on the offense. If you play the defense game you WILL eventually lose. No matter how fast you are. The European sources are as clear on this as the Japanese traditions. Even shields and bucklers are to be used as offensive weapons rather than passive blocking devices. And even if you are traveling after, you are always seeking to be the first to hit. |
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Oct 5, 2016 17:35:57 GMT
The anti-katana bias is a result of decades of orientalist puffery in the west, which held that only the mysterious east could produce such uber-blades. Then folks discovered that lo and behold the west also had sword arts, and some very fine blades. And the backlash took hold against all the myths the west itself had largely generated about eastern mysticism and superior swordsmanship. When you toss in modern nationalism and even elements of racism the whole thing can get ugly. And on top of all that you have some pretty clear divisions between JSA and HEMA subcultures. When you look at the actual historical masters, east or west, the specific type of blade doesn't seem to have mattered much at all to them. We don't find the old masters telling us only use swords with x dimensions. Indeed very few of them even say anything more than "sword." Even in periods when there were many different types of swords in active use. It's modern folks, starting probably with Silver, who come up with complex typologies and emphasize differences in design. And Silver's ranting was tied up with early modern nationalism and can't entirely be trusted. There are some design elements that are important for particular moves. The inverted parry of the messer for example that uses the nagel. Or the short edge for zwerchs. But these are the exception.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 5, 2016 17:53:41 GMT
The Macuahuitl has a harder edge than euros and katana, but looks like the nose of a sawfish!  |
|
Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
|
Post by Ifrit on Oct 5, 2016 17:57:28 GMT
Okay you guys know everything. Happy? You are the experts. who cares about new ideas. Let's recycle the same cr*p over and over and have only one set of right and nothing matters in this forum unless it's an opportunity to regurgitate that same information over and over
I didn't even bother reading. Hell with it
|
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Oct 5, 2016 19:14:53 GMT
Who are you responding to? The myths are that katana are the ultimate cutting machines and longswords are dull levers. The reality is that they're all swords, with inherent engineering tradeoffs to favor one aspect of fighting over another.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 19:21:44 GMT
we are rapidly reaching a point where those myths are being spread by idiot trolls making tbeir own strawmen to tear down, it's almost always tongue in cheek nonsense.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 5, 2016 19:48:02 GMT
When reading back this very informative thread started to derail with my foolish stupid "sushi" joke.
I want to apologize for this and set clear once and for all:
The katana is not better in the certain function of making sushi!
|
|
|
|
Post by howler on Oct 5, 2016 21:46:00 GMT
Not sure why you Euro guys are so hell bent on saying why the long sword is superior in every aspect. I say each sword has its function. But apparently live and let live isn't good enough for you guys This is what I mean by "katana bashing". You guys are like galaxy phone users. Cant stand that a different sword might be slightly better at a certain function? Gonna toss out there that I never said a long sword couldn't cut mats. But you gotta really go out of your way to miss my points. I also understand that you can make a long sword that is an even better cutter than a katana. But when you do this, can it thrust as well? I own the GSOW and it cuts better than any katana I've owned yes, but it's also a pathetic thruster. Katana is a fantastic cut and thrust design optimized for offence. It's not a defence weapon I don't think anyone can say that any one thing is better at all things...which is why my home is so full of knives, swords, machete, handguns, rifles, spears of all types. Long sword is GENERALLY better, due to its versatile characteristics (length to weight, guard, double edge, short spear ability, blade on blade all day contact, etc...blah, blah, blah...see my earlier comments on this post). Yet, I have a Ko-Katana under my bed, as you are quite correct on the ability to be offensive with this specialized cutter...hence, SPECIFIC application. Hollywood really did a number on both these fine side arms, turning the Long Sword into a slow, brutish, monstrous Great Sword only Conan could wield, while portraying the Katana as a light saber that you banged against the blades of other swords (Long Sword style) as in the movie Highlander. And we wonder why young men naively jump into these "Long Sword vs. Katana" debates. |
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Oct 6, 2016 7:39:24 GMT
This has rapidly deteriorated into the usual emotional back and forth that results in no one winning and everyone losing. The point of the OP was lost (and in a way, it was answered quite early I think).
I'm out too. Plenty of other discussions that elicit less controversy and are more interesting anyway.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 8:22:32 GMT
This has rapidly deteriorated into the usual emotional back and forth that results in no one winning and everyone losing. The point of the OP was lost (and in a way, it was answered quite early I think). I'm out too. Plenty of other discussions that elicit less controversy and are more interesting anyway. Good way to handle these issues; will try to follow your way! |
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Oct 6, 2016 18:11:55 GMT
Yes, we all know how good we are on world wide web on imagining fighting scenarios. But why in all scenarios the opponent is less skilled than the describer, it is beyond my imagination. And I am talking from a katana guy point of view. Without surprise factor in, like tricking your opponent, the longest sword wins it all day long. And to trick him you should know his style otherwise you might open for him a way to get you. That fighting video was showing the advantage of 2 edges blade too, not just the length or spectacle for the crowd. PS 4-5 inches + on O-katana blade are not making the sword unyieldable. It is quite good actually, it has even more authority especially if you need to bind or block or parry. In all imagined scenarios, the opponents should be of equal skill, otherwise the result would be partly ascribed to the skill of the better wielder (unless, of course, the lesser wielder won) ;) . I always thought (not being a katana master or anything) that the sword would be somehow measured to the individuals stature (like holding it golf club style, with the tip a few inches from the ground). It is my understanding that katana was mainly a dueling sword, with the fight being over in a few strokes (and seconds), like an old west gunfight in the movies, and that the swords were not meant for blade on blade/all day long, like longsword. 1. When I imagine a life and death fighting scenario, I never consider the opponent as same skilled as me. He is always better than me - is the single way someone can look for a life and death fight and decide which weapon will win. As my old sensei was saying: "Even the best fighter will meet one day his master. What if is today? " Same skills is a kata mind-setup. Not really good for real deal. 2. The limitation to the length is somewhat mandatory for some applications but not really imposed. I practice with 29" blade and 33" blade. If I would have a 50" katana I would have trained with it also. 3. ANY fight for life it ends much sooner than the Hollywood impregnated minds think. 4. Blade on blade all day long? If someone is fighting for his life, the resilience of the blade on blade means sh*t to him. You go for flesh as soon as the opening comes when you are fighting for your life. As long as you know to fight with a katana, you can parry and block without damaging beyond usage before getting a flesh cut out of it. Or in your scenario the katana guy is always in defense and he just receives blows after blows from Hulk, or you really know nothing about katana in general.
|
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Oct 6, 2016 18:31:21 GMT
Against a better armed guy with more skills than yourself there is not much fun in imagination.
Maybe not fun, but will give you the right measure about your willingness to meet the guy in a life and death fight.
|
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Oct 6, 2016 18:47:26 GMT
This is exactly what I believe as well. The Japanese did not have the same values as Knights did. Different fightin system. In my opinion, duels and fights are nothing alike, but both require very different skills. Knights fought (though the long sword was also used for duels, when not wearing armour). While the katana did find itself used on the battlefield, it's was far from a preferred weapon for such matters. I still believe it found its favours in duels, instead. With a katana, you are a walking executioner, taking lives in one swing with no need for defense (as your opponent would be long dead before he could swing back). For this reason, it isn't not a very useful weapon in a fight against a knight or for sparring in HEMA. It's actually a pretty bad weapon for HEMA, as you don't exactly get the advantage of one hit kills with a blunt weapon. 1. You can't imply that a katana guy can't be attacked by multiple attackers on a street, right? The fighting system might be different, but the mind-set is the same: kill them all! If not, you are as good as dead. On battlefield or on the street. And by the way, when English met Japanese, they were stunned by how ferocious the samurai fighter was once the sword was out. Yes, katana is not for battlefield, but heck, in the right hands with the right mindset, you don't want to meet a katana guy on battlefield. Same things applies for any type of sword. 2. A good katana swordsman is first of all very good defensively. With or without the sword out. 3. In a sparring environment, the katana can do well against the longsword if the katana user is understanding maai and respects the length and the double cutting advantages of the opponent's blade. And IF he is not friend with the opponent - the wish to "get him" is sometimes putting sparring friends in poor sparring situations unnecessary.
|
|
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
