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Post by bluetrain on Jul 31, 2016 12:56:51 GMT
I just did a survey of antique smallswords on eBay and there are a lot for sale. Well, guess what? There are a few that have blades nearly identical to the Cold Steel example. They tend to be from early in the 18th century. Later ones invariably all have narrower blades. I would also say that the early antiques seem to have marginally thinner blade closer to the point. They all have more elaborate hilts but it's difficult to say otherwise how different the hilts are. A couple have decidedly small knuckle bows but aside from the ornamentation, they all have practically the same design. There were a number with the funny extra heavy at the hilt blade, too. (I know the term but I can't say it and I can't spell it). So I'd give the Cold Steel version a better rating for historical accuracy. One other thing you might say is that because sword designs are always changing, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, all designs are in a sense transitional. In any event, the CS model is evidently trying to replicate the early models.
On the eBay selections today, some of the blades were in historically accurate rusted conditions, though some were still in good shape. I don't think any were what you would call bright. But the hilts were all in like-new condition, for what it's worth.
One thing I was looking for but did not find was a photo of the opposite side (the "left-hand side") of a Cold Steel smallsword. Did see one and none of the other swords were well presented on that point either. Does the CS smallsword have three sides (one side being a groove, sort of) or four, like a Lebel bayonet?
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Post by deadmoney11 on Jul 31, 2016 13:02:04 GMT
I wouldn't assume everything labeled 'antique' on ebay is so. Indeed the striking resemblance to cold steel is either a window into cold steels choice of reproduction inspiration or an obvious sign of the 'antique's' more modern Indian origins shall we say.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 14:10:35 GMT
I just did a survey of antique smallswords on eBay and there are a lot for sale. Well, guess what? There are a few that have blades nearly identical to the Cold Steel example. They tend to be from early in the 18th century. Later ones invariably all have narrower blades. I would also say that the early antiques seem to have marginally thinner blade closer to the point. They all have more elaborate hilts but it's difficult to say otherwise how different the hilts are. A couple have decidedly small knuckle bows but aside from the ornamentation, they all have practically the same design. There were a number with the funny extra heavy at the hilt blade, too. (I know the term but I can't say it and I can't spell it). So I'd give the Cold Steel version a better rating for historical accuracy. One other thing you might say is that because sword designs are always changing, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, all designs are in a sense transitional. In any event, the CS model is evidently trying to replicate the early models. On the eBay selections today, some of the blades were in historically accurate rusted conditions, though some were still in good shape. I don't think any were what you would call bright. But the hilts were all in like-new condition, for what it's worth. One thing I was looking for but did not find was a photo of the opposite side (the "left-hand side") of a Cold Steel smallsword. Did see one and none of the other swords were well presented on that point either. Does the CS smallsword have three sides (one side being a groove, sort of) or four, like a Lebel bayonet? SBG review here: www.sword-buyers-guide.com/small-sword.htmlLooking at the image of the scabbard, it looks like it's a three sided blade.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 31, 2016 14:11:27 GMT
Deadmoney11, I was thinking the same things. eBay is NOT the place to learn about swords nor any other subject. If one is an expert in a particular field then possibly visiting eBay, but certainly not to learn.
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Post by bluetrain on Jul 31, 2016 15:54:14 GMT
Are internet forums any better?
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Post by MOK on Jul 31, 2016 17:30:49 GMT
The width of a blade isn't necessarily indicative of its weight or mass distribution at all, let alone the way it handles in use. If you didn't even know what kind of cross-section the Cold Steel blade has, how could you possibly compare it to antiques in any meaningful way? There's A LOT more to a blade than just the profile shot you see in most photos. PS. The funny style of blade with the sharply widened forte is called "Colichemarde". Are internet forums any better? Yes, in fact. For one, us enthusiasts are not doing this to sell you our stuff. Sales pitches are not good sources of information because they have very obvious and powerful ulterior motives, even when they're not the usual boilerplate spin written by the ignorant to impress the ignorant. Their purpose is to persuade you, NOT to inform you. And for a second, who do you think is the better person to ask about swords: amateur swordsmen or professional copywriters? (Or some random temp roped in to write the copy because the idiot boss thinks a monkey with a keyboard could do it, all you do is just press buttons, how hard can it be.) The descriptions from major auction houses (like Christie's and such) and museums are usually more reliable - but beyond objective physical measurements, most of the time they don't really know what they're talking about, either, because most of the time they're written by auctioneers and curators who aren't particularly interested in historical weapons and martial arts. And frustratingly often they get the measurements wrong, too...
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Post by howler on Jul 31, 2016 19:48:50 GMT
I just did a survey of antique smallswords on eBay and there are a lot for sale. Well, guess what? There are a few that have blades nearly identical to the Cold Steel example. They tend to be from early in the 18th century. Later ones invariably all have narrower blades. I would also say that the early antiques seem to have marginally thinner blade closer to the point. They all have more elaborate hilts but it's difficult to say otherwise how different the hilts are. A couple have decidedly small knuckle bows but aside from the ornamentation, they all have practically the same design. There were a number with the funny extra heavy at the hilt blade, too. (I know the term but I can't say it and I can't spell it). So I'd give the Cold Steel version a better rating for historical accuracy. One other thing you might say is that because sword designs are always changing, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, all designs are in a sense transitional. In any event, the CS model is evidently trying to replicate the early models. On the eBay selections today, some of the blades were in historically accurate rusted conditions, though some were still in good shape. I don't think any were what you would call bright. But the hilts were all in like-new condition, for what it's worth. One thing I was looking for but did not find was a photo of the opposite side (the "left-hand side") of a Cold Steel smallsword. Did see one and none of the other swords were well presented on that point either. Does the CS smallsword have three sides (one side being a groove, sort of) or four, like a Lebel bayonet? The other side has nothing but a large groove. You could almost describe the blade as two sides with a ridge (instead of three sided). Bottom line is this thing has a very fast tip (being 23oz or so...at 38" OA) and will poke a dude all the way through NO MATTER HOW HEAVY THE CLOTHING HE IS WEARING...and that's all you want. Forget the flimsy, brittle (fashion only) "Court Swords"...this is the best (lets call it "smallsword like object") on the market if your looking for certain self defense applications.
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Post by bluetrain on Jul 31, 2016 20:14:31 GMT
What kinds of smallswords do you amateurs have?
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Post by howler on Jul 31, 2016 20:56:26 GMT
What kinds of smallswords do you amateurs have? In the end, perhaps, this is the only pertinent question, if one really wants a representation of a smallsword. After everything (much of it fascinating, historically) discussed, the CS version is the best one (when you factor in price point and other elements) out there, as some of the other companies representations are actually heavier and more expensive. Still, I'll bet CS could knock off 1/4lb. or so, while keeping most of the durability.
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Post by MOK on Jul 31, 2016 21:29:41 GMT
Seriously, guys, it's not about the weight! The weight of the CS sword is quite neatly within historical precedent - it's around the upper end of the chart but not off it, and IMO it's distributed quite nicely, too. The weight in itself is not the real problem. The damn thing's simply too large to be handled like a historical smallsword; it's like trying to wear size 15 gloves on size 10 hands.
That said, it IS probably the best modern-made affordable stabbing implement that from a distance looks like a smallsword currently on the market - and at this reduced price it's an absolute steal, no question.
PS. Come to think of it, if you happen to have six fingers on your right hand...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 21:45:32 GMT
Are internet forums any better? It Depends
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Post by howler on Jul 31, 2016 23:40:07 GMT
Seriously, guys, it's not about the weight! The weight of the CS sword is quite neatly within historical precedent - it's around the upper end of the chart but not off it, and IMO it's distributed quite nicely, too. The weight in itself is not the real problem. The damn thing's simply too large to be handled like a historical smallsword; it's like trying to wear size 15 gloves on size 10 hands. That said, it IS probably the best modern-made affordable stabbing implement that from a distance looks like a smallsword currently on the market - and at this reduced price it's an absolute steal, no question. PS. Come to think of it, if you happen to have six fingers on your right hand... I don't think I would argue with any of this (as I have heard the handle is indeed larger than historical examples), as anything more is just getting into (though interesting) historical nuance.
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Post by bluetrain on Aug 1, 2016 11:15:12 GMT
Now we're getting somewhere. If the Cold Steel product is iffy, what is the best new smallsword available today? That's just a question for discussion; I'm not adding anything to my already long list of wants, I mean, until something else comes along.
I've seen a fair number of smallswords in person but I was hardly able to handle any of them, most of them (but not all) were behind glass in museums. I was able to see one in a behind-the-scenes tour of the restoration/conservation lab at Mt. Vernon (my wife is a Washington descendent--not of George, though) but I was more interested in other things there at the time. I did see and get to handle, however, a colichemarde at a gun show (pre-internet days) but not in any sense that I could actually get a feel for the thing and, anyway, I had nothing to compare it to. That may have been the same gun show where I bought an 1897 infantry sword (plain blade), which I had to drive all the way to Baltimore to pick up. That would have been in the mid-1970s.
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Post by MOK on Aug 1, 2016 11:48:20 GMT
G. Gedney Godwin was already mentioned, I believe. Probably the absolute best you can get under $300.
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Post by 28shadow on Aug 2, 2016 16:13:30 GMT
So the sword arrived today and I have to say, I'm impressed. For $100 it's the best deal on a sword I've ever had. Although according to what people have said in this thread, the sword's hilt isn't exactly historically accurate, but despite that I like it. A lot. The grip actually fits in my hand really well, my finger fits very well into the quillon. What's that? I'm not supposed to put my finger in smallsword quillons? Oh well. I like it. The sword glides in and out of the scabbard with extreme ease. I've never held something so smooth, which is weird. It just has this smooth warm feeling when drawn from the scabbard. Bottom line is, I'm happy. So that's that.
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Post by bluetrain on Aug 2, 2016 16:49:48 GMT
Maybe the problem is we're not historically accurate people. I might fall for that thing yet.
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Post by howler on Aug 2, 2016 19:58:39 GMT
So the sword arrived today and I have to say, I'm impressed. For $100 it's the best deal on a sword I've ever had. Although according to what people have said in this thread, the sword's hilt isn't exactly historically accurate, but despite that I like it. A lot. The grip actually fits in my hand really well, my finger fits very well into the quillon. What's that? I'm not supposed to put my finger in smallsword quillons? Oh well. I like it. The sword glides in and out of the scabbard with extreme ease. I've never held something so smooth, which is weird. It just has this smooth warm feeling when drawn from the scabbard. Bottom line is, I'm happy. So that's that. Glad my suggestion worked out for you. I really thought it would. A hundred clams for that thing...are you kidding me.
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Post by howler on Aug 2, 2016 20:01:11 GMT
Maybe the problem is we're not historically accurate people. I might fall for that thing yet. At a hundred bones...you could use that thing as a "historically inaccurate "toothpick", or maybe fireplace poker, or mosquito swatter. It really is a nice thing for the money.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 21:33:34 GMT
Mine's scheduled for delivery on Friday, looking forward to seeing how it handles. I'm actually encouraged that it's oversized by historical standards. I handled an 1812 era saber years ago and it felt small in my hand. So I'm hopeful that this will fit me better.
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Post by howler on Aug 3, 2016 4:15:18 GMT
Mine's scheduled for delivery on Friday, looking forward to seeing how it handles. I'm actually encouraged that it's oversized by historical standards. I handled an 1812 era saber years ago and it felt small in my hand. So I'm hopeful that this will fit me better. My understanding is that the biggest gripe is the length from behind the guard being too long (not really the heavier weight), so this will most definitely not be too small for your mitts. Most of the people who have received these swords (so far) have been pretty happy.
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