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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 22:52:29 GMT
"Where the grip covered in a plastic substitute, the entire grip cover would have dissolved in the acetone by that time." Really? Acetone comes in plastic bottles. I'll have to pick at mine a bit. What I see is sanded plastic. Although, it does somewhat resemble a sharkskin grip I painted black. Funny that Cold Steel doesn't list grip material at all. Plastic ray panels are often used on Chinese katana. My minor disappointments (while observed before purchase) were the wire work and rather modern metalwork art and finish. Attachments:
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 1, 2016 23:59:53 GMT
,, Damn, now I'm learing at that Cavalier Rapier...'' You are not the only one, but that thing costs around Euro 720 ex shipping over here. Maybe I have to email that swordnut from SBG. What's his name again? Major something something..... A few things worth considering...or maybe worthless, as I'm a neophyte who merely "ponders" things of interest (so bear this in mind). Anyway, I think people interested in the CS Cavalier may want to have a look at the CS 1908, instead...performance wise (NOT historic, aesthetic, etc...). They are almost the same dimensionally (1908 is about an ounce lighter, with a reach (where your fingers are-near guard...how I measure-to the tip) of 2 1/2" or so less. The POB (again measured from your finger area) is probably around 1 1/2" closer to your fingers with the Cavalier...hey, I never said the 1908 would be a better dueling sword, overall...but FOR THE PRICE). The advantage to the 1908 is that IT CAN NEVER BREAK...as it's a stiff cavalry saber, but watch how it can be used (a video on YouTube) on foot. Oddly, the original weighed MUCH more (I think), so CS made a lighter version (for once) that would improve performance for a person using it for personal defense. Now for another observation: I would not consider either a rapier...as one would (in my opinion) use a historical rapier. Honestly, rapiers (light and heavy versions) shine with 39" blades minimum, and ideal blade lengths of 42-25 inches) and one of the reasons is SINGLE TIME ATTACK (I'm no fencing expert), and that extra reach makes a rapier a rapier (otherwise, just get a long single hand sword-with 32'-36" bld.-of some type that's better at cut/thrust). I like the heavy version (used earlier) because it was used at a time when you could be expected to fight ANY weapon (including polearms...gulp) in MANY different environments. You didn't swing these suckers (they were often 3lbs or more and a bit blade heavy), but they were often sharpened for PUSH and PULL cuts (if the opponent got within the tips reach) and used with an off hand dagger...EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, as these two components (sharp blade, off hand dagger) made you (when properly trained) near invincible against a side armed foe (pole arms are still the king...which is why they were the main battle weapons in war). Btw, look at the CS Ribbed Shell Swept Hilt Rapier (with Crab Claw or Shell Hilt daggers)...I have all three (and remember, YOU REALLY MUST HAVE AN OFF HAND DAGGER...or any longish blade when using heavy-or even light, IMO, rapiers). I'm rambling on, but this is all food for thought and hopefully entertaining (if not enlightening) for you people who are more experienced than I.
In buying a sword you may be attracted by aesthetics and just pay for the sex appeal or the vibe that it looks like a nation killer. But there is also the matter of historical application. Rapiers survived for 150 years. During that time they evolved from cut and thrust types into military and civilian status symbols ( the rapier appears to have been the first weapon developed for middle class material exhibition "my blades longer than your blade, phhhggggtt! ) My Spainish school rapiers have 36 inch blades and only weigh 2.3 lbs. Form and speed can beat a clumsy, mishandled blade. What we call rapier today were just swords in their own context and they varied from region to application. The Cavalier bespeaks a 30 years war mounted gentlemans warsword to me. In that light it is appropriate. Use of the Main Gauche is appropriate to foot combat. The CS 1908 is actually the India Pattern. It is lighter with a shorter grip to accomodate Indian physionomy. I have an older model and it even says IP on the back blade. The acceptance of the 1908 was highly disputed. Many authorites bemoaned the fact that the weapon had no real cutting ability. Personally I'd get a Patton 1913 before I'd get a 1908. (Apologize if that came over as sempriniy. Not intended. Been a warehouse breakin elsewhere in the county, this morning, and I'm suddenly getting bombarded with liaison msgs from bosses and the customers wanting to be reassured that the underpaid, overworked dregs guarding their stuff are on full alert. )
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Post by Afoo on Jul 2, 2016 0:56:48 GMT
,, Damn, now I'm learing at that Cavalier Rapier...'' You are not the only one, but that thing costs around Euro 720 ex shipping over here. Maybe I have to email that swordnut from SBG. What's his name again? Major something something..... Midway is still 398.00 for it (free shipping to here). Asked KoA if they coule confirm that the 36.5 inches of blade is above the guard and not at the quillons. They said above the guard. (Temptation increases). The Cavalier looks a bit strange to me - the blade is too thin for a cut and thrust, and too short for a rapier. When I say cut and thrust/rapier in this instance, I mean in terms of aesthetics rather than function. I am sure it can do both decently, but it just looks...off. Too much in the hilt and not enough in the blade.
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Post by Afoo on Jul 2, 2016 1:19:06 GMT
"Where the grip covered in a plastic substitute, the entire grip cover would have dissolved in the acetone by that time." Really? Acetone comes in plastic bottles. I'll have to pick at mine a bit. What I see is sanded plastic. Although, it does somewhat resemble a sharkskin grip I painted black. Funny that Cold Steel doesn't list grip material at all. Plastic ray panels are often used on Chinese katana. My minor disappointments (while observed before purchase) were the wire work and rather modern metalwork art and finish. you are kinda correct. Polypropylene and some other plastics are resistant to acetone. polystyrene, which is commonly used in cheap injection molding, is not
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 2, 2016 1:29:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 2:03:28 GMT
Sold & Shipped by RedsGear (web only) I was eyeing the Cavalier on KOA at one point during the day. I like it, in a kind of Pappenheimer way and the hilt looks reasonably nice but I would find myself chasing all the littler holes to make stars. How sure are we that some of this CS stuff is not coming from Dynasty Sword/Huanuo/Fred Chen? I rather like the Cavalier and it would be an aesthetic choice.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 2, 2016 2:40:08 GMT
Sold & Shipped by RedsGear (web only) Oops. I didn’t read the fine print. I thought it too good to be true.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 2, 2016 3:33:09 GMT
Posted in General Discussion already. MidwayUSA is having a 10-30.00 off sale this weekend. Just bought the Cavalier for 365.00 shipped USA. That's 83.00 below KoA.
Boohahahahahahahaha
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Post by howler on Jul 2, 2016 4:19:30 GMT
A few things worth considering...or maybe worthless, as I'm a neophyte who merely "ponders" things of interest (so bear this in mind). Anyway, I think people interested in the CS Cavalier may want to have a look at the CS 1908, instead...performance wise (NOT historic, aesthetic, etc...). They are almost the same dimensionally (1908 is about an ounce lighter, with a reach (where your fingers are-near guard...how I measure-to the tip) of 2 1/2" or so less. The POB (again measured from your finger area) is probably around 1 1/2" closer to your fingers with the Cavalier...hey, I never said the 1908 would be a better dueling sword, overall...but FOR THE PRICE). The advantage to the 1908 is that IT CAN NEVER BREAK...as it's a stiff cavalry saber, but watch how it can be used (a video on YouTube) on foot. Oddly, the original weighed MUCH more (I think), so CS made a lighter version (for once) that would improve performance for a person using it for personal defense. Now for another observation: I would not consider either a rapier...as one would (in my opinion) use a historical rapier. Honestly, rapiers (light and heavy versions) shine with 39" blades minimum, and ideal blade lengths of 42-25 inches) and one of the reasons is SINGLE TIME ATTACK (I'm no fencing expert), and that extra reach makes a rapier a rapier (otherwise, just get a long single hand sword-with 32'-36" bld.-of some type that's better at cut/thrust). I like the heavy version (used earlier) because it was used at a time when you could be expected to fight ANY weapon (including polearms...gulp) in MANY different environments. You didn't swing these suckers (they were often 3lbs or more and a bit blade heavy), but they were often sharpened for PUSH and PULL cuts (if the opponent got within the tips reach) and used with an off hand dagger...EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, as these two components (sharp blade, off hand dagger) made you (when properly trained) near invincible against a side armed foe (pole arms are still the king...which is why they were the main battle weapons in war). Btw, look at the CS Ribbed Shell Swept Hilt Rapier (with Crab Claw or Shell Hilt daggers)...I have all three (and remember, YOU REALLY MUST HAVE AN OFF HAND DAGGER...or any longish blade when using heavy-or even light, IMO, rapiers). I'm rambling on, but this is all food for thought and hopefully entertaining (if not enlightening) for you people who are more experienced than I.
In buying a sword you may be attracted by aesthetics and just pay for the sex appeal or the vibe that it looks like a nation killer. But there is also the matter of historical application. Rapiers survived for 150 years. During that time they evolved from cut and thrust types into military and civilian status symbols ( the rapier appears to have been the first weapon developed for middle class material exhibition "my blades longer than your blade, phhhggggtt! ) My Spainish school rapiers have 36 inch blades and only weigh 2.3 lbs. Form and speed can beat a clumsy, mishandled blade. What we call rapier today were just swords in their own context and they varied from region to application. The Cavalier bespeaks a 30 years war mounted gentlemans warsword to me. In that light it is appropriate. Use of the Main Gauche is appropriate to foot combat. The CS 1908 is actually the India Pattern. It is lighter with a shorter grip to accomodate Indian physionomy. I have an older model and it even says IP on the back blade. The acceptance of the 1908 was highly disputed. Many authorites bemoaned the fact that the weapon had no real cutting ability. Personally I'd get a Patton 1913 before I'd get a 1908. (Apologize if that came over as sempriniy. Not intended. Been a warehouse breakin elsewhere in the county, this morning, and I'm suddenly getting bombarded with liaison msgs from bosses and the customers wanting to be reassured that the underpaid, overworked dregs guarding their stuff are on full alert. ) CERTAINLY no need for apologies (and you would easily slaughter me in a duel-regardless of weapon-anyway) , as I should have prefaced my understanding more (though reckoned that shortening the post as a better remedy for todays climate of short attention spans.....which you clearly do not have). I am in FULL understanding (though, almost certainly less knowledge) and agreement with you about the history, uses, evo...and devolution of the Rapier. Also, it can be said that the blade size of rapiers, effectiveness wise, can be/is vigorously debated and (of course) changes with the context (Scholar Gladiatoria word). I can only say that I parroted what I heard other (seemingly) knowledgeable individuals (like yourself) say in various forums on the issue. I will say that in an equal duel, a long/light (42-45") bld. from quillion (not guard) which measures true reach from fingers, will generally beat a long/heavy...but also light/short or heavy/short. You may indeed have been in a few arguemen...I mean "heated discussions" with people regarding blade length. The beauty of the subject is that there is no UNIVERSAL best, as these shorter "hybrid" swords had their advantages when placed in a different application. My interest was the larger ones, which had to be beefy to not be blown off line by the constellation of other weapons in use (15th century was kind of like Jurassic park for non firearm weaponry, when knights were on the way out). I heard talk of "single time" attack, as well as some of the other advantages of these longer blades............to a point. You mentioned, and are so right about the "peacock" affect, and how some lunatic would show up with a 50+" blade (and minus 3" in the shorts ). Small swords fared even worse by "High Society", as they were carried for an even longer time, and in the end became a flimsy (maybe not even useable) "accessory" court swords. At the beginning, they pushed a pound and a half (24oz), though a bit heavy for pure duel, but that extra beef was probably used to fend of larger weapons, and as self defense, as you surely would not want your self defense tool breaking. As long as you had full articulation of your wrist, in a fight you would not notice the extra weight, and the lighter ones would really only shine for the few "expert" duelists to take advantage of. See, you got me rambling again. The Cavalier is a good looking and very VERSATLE sword whether one calls it a rapier (and you pointed out that they never even used the term at the time) or not. Just don't buy it and go against me and my Ribbed Shell Swept Hilt (with that extra half foot of blade reach) or I'll have ta....oh, what am I saying, I'd still get run through...gulp.
Oh, dear. I just posted and saw that you just purchased one. Looks like we shall have to meet on the field of honor and settle this little (though I say big-ger) "BLADE LENGTH ISSUE"! If you watched Doctor Strangelove you would realize that you cannot have a "Blade Length Gap" (George C Scott character was talking about "Mine Shaft Gap", I believe...if you don't recall). Congrats, as its is lovely and can do ALOT of mischief (both good and bad).
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2016 4:39:18 GMT
Coming back to the ray skin grip material. I removed the black paint from my CS basket hilt swords. What is under the paint is ray skin. There is no plastic around that can immitate the micro hooks on ray or sharkskin nodes. I have compared it to the ray on my nihonto. The same stuff, only that the nihontos have higher quality skin. Where the stuff on CS grips made of plastic, it would be rather smooth to the touch. This stuff still feels like very coarse sanding paper. Take off the paint and it will damage leather gloves. What they always do is to file down the nodes to some degree, so you do not rip open your hands. The one problem with ray skin is that though even when wet, it is very hard to get a clean cut to get the seam right. What they do is to lay one side of the seam on top of the other and fill the edge with some filler. It saves time. Look at your CS grips. All filled with filler stuff at the back. But hey, if you all WANT to believe it is plastic, be my guest. I am cool with ray.
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Post by howler on Jul 2, 2016 4:40:00 GMT
Posted in General Discussion already. MidwayUSA is having a 10-30.00 off sale this weekend. Just bought the Cavalier for 365.00 shipped USA. That's 83.00 below KoA. Boohahahahahahahaha That's a REAL good deal, as the price point was one of the only things going against it. That may well be my "intermediate" stabby stabby, in between the CS Small Sword (I have THREE) and CS Ribbed Shell Swept Hilt Rapier. the Cavalier really fills a lot of niches. I wonder if she cuts, or is it mainly thrust?
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Post by howler on Jul 2, 2016 4:44:44 GMT
Coming back to the ray skin grip material. I removed the black paint from my CS basket hilt swords. What is under the paint is ray skin. There is no plastic around that can immitate the micro hooks on ray or sharkskin nodes. I have compared it to the ray on my nihonto. The same stuff, only that the nihontos have higher quality skin. Where the stuff on CS grips made of plastic, it would be rather smooth to the touch. This stuff still feels like very coarse sanding paper. Take off the paint and it will damage leather gloves. What they always do is to file down the nodes to some degree, so you do not rip open your hands. But hey, if you all WANT to believe it is plastic, be my guest. I am cool with ray. Ray sounds good to me. STILL waiting, btw, on my CS Backsword. If it doesn't show up tomorrow, I'll be looking at Tuesday or so.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2016 5:10:41 GMT
Looks like they have a hard time finding you a 6mm one? I think there is a ,,new'' trend in the internet shopping business. At least three providers I know of used to have all stuff in stock. Not anymore. Now they juggle with delivery times. Two weeks minimum here in Europe. Looks like instead of having to invest capital in stock, they just take orders for some models and push those through to the manufacturer. I have seen this more and more over the last maybe two years.
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Post by howler on Jul 2, 2016 6:38:59 GMT
Looks like they have a hard time finding you a 6mm one? I think there is a ,,new'' trend in the internet shopping business. At least three providers I know of used to have all stuff in stock. Not anymore. Now they juggle with delivery times. Two weeks minimum here in Europe. Looks like instead of having to invest capital in stock, they just take orders for some models and push those through to the manufacturer. I have seen this more and more over the last maybe two years. If this is the case, then I certainly don't mind waiting...provided the, as of yet "Mythological 6mm" does indeed make a surprise appearance. Your "trend" may be good in our case, as you get complaints (less than 4mm, broken this or that, 4 1/2mm here, 9oz light over there) from a humble forum, then they can call the manufacturer for the fix, with the penalty of a lengthened wait time, but they do have the "call and response" system built in, as these manufacturers are ready and able to deal with the call. Of course, if they had it right the first time, you could have inventory and quick delivery, so it all seems silly. Build it right the first time and you avoid the issue all together. I'm still in the dark as to what the specks for this Backsword are. If they are the same as the literature claimed, then why these huge differences? If the claim must be altered, then why release the original (and ultimately faulty) specks? Wouldn't you (CS) simply have given the manufacturer the specifications (assuming they had workable prototypes) and say "build this"? It had to be some kind of mess up at the factory, so quality control would be the next issue, as you kind of want to check/inspect your first products. The whole thing is a mystery. I think we should make a movie..."The Missing 2mm"...starring Whippy Mcflex as Snappy the Noodle. He wants to be big in all the wrong places, rigid, overweight, poorly balanced (he drinks a lot), and has a taste for the ladies with ALOT of distal TAPER (if you know what I mean).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 7:22:43 GMT
Coming back to the ray skin grip material. I removed the black paint from my CS basket hilt swords. What is under the paint is ray skin. There is no plastic around that can immitate the micro hooks on ray or sharkskin nodes. I have compared it to the ray on my nihonto. The same stuff, only that the nihontos have higher quality skin. Where the stuff on CS grips made of plastic, it would be rather smooth to the touch. This stuff still feels like very coarse sanding paper. Take off the paint and it will damage leather gloves. What they always do is to file down the nodes to some degree, so you do not rip open your hands. The one problem with ray skin is that though even when wet, it is very hard to get a clean cut to get the seam right. What they do is to lay one side of the seam on top of the other and fill the edge with some filler. It saves time. Look at your CS grips. All filled with filler stuff at the back. But hey, if you all WANT to believe it is plastic, be my guest. I am cool with ray. I guess you should call KOA.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2016 10:52:43 GMT
Why?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 2, 2016 11:42:56 GMT
Posted in General Discussion already. MidwayUSA is having a 10-30.00 off sale this weekend. Just bought the Cavalier for 365.00 shipped USA. That's 83.00 below KoA. Boohahahahahahahaha Apparently I managed to sneak into the interphase of two differnt discounts and got the old 398.00 discount AND the -30.00 from 469.00 list for the weekend. Sorry, Camelot just sank back into the lake and you need to deal with KoA again. :(
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 13:40:26 GMT
Because they list it as faux. As exciting as your insistence might be, the "proof" probably means less to me than you might think. I was planning on taking a sharp knife to mine but it is kind of on the bottom of my to do lists. Overall, I still list my impression as cheesy goodness and very modern looking while liking it a good bit. I was wrong about my initial measurement, so I'm not likely to be disappointed that my impression was plastic. I did post previously that you may well be right. I just don't see the need to drag out my plastic bottle full of acetone to remove supposed paint and find out Edit Ok, scraped, magnified, heated, smelled and magnified. The seam is lapped, as mentioned and the taper/skive that, which really did look like sanded plastic. No gunk in the seam though, which presents a nice flat to carve/scrape at. Scraping a bit to get down below the black and burning the bits smelled like tooth, so there you go. Less than 2mm of the seam near the pommel scraped and re-blacked easily. Not plastic but ray rawhide (shark just looks a lot different (tinier teeth/hooks). I still dislike the wire job and silly faux turks head. The Cavalier rapier with decent looking turks but that grip also flawed (imo) with anachronistic windings. Luke La Fontaine had been implementable in developing several of the older renaissance and early modern swords and mentioned China production. This goes back to the colichemarde and rapier introductions. As quick as we are to label this mort as from the variuos shops of Windlass, I'll still wonder until we see this and the big black rapier with dagger compliment duplicated by the other usual suspects. It is much easier to see the relationship of medieval stuff sold by Dynasty Forge and Cold Steel
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 2, 2016 15:31:07 GMT
How KOA list their stuff is their problem. Now, for those eager beavers amongst us with a positive mindset and who like to modd stuff and have fun with plastic bottles filled with acetone: Here are two grips. No 1 is the Hanwei Scottish Backsword. No 2 is the CS Scottish Broadsword. Both were painted the same plastic looking black. It is obvious that the Hanwei's larger skin nodes are filed back to the extend that this grip feels more comfortable in the bare hand than the no 2 CS grip. This CS grip still feels like very coarse sand paper, though it had some filing done to it too. Here you really want that glove. One can see individual nodes, some filed down, some intact, some with a small dent in the middle, all perfectly natural. Hanwei. I antiqued this one somewhat. It came out too white and new. CS. Also antiqued, this is what's lurking under that black plastic paint. My lawyer insists I make it clear that it is NOT advised to smoke when playing around with acetone. For the rest: Have fun! Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2016 16:57:26 GMT
The wire on this one also has the lazy wind but the big wire is almost right for a couple of mine. Tom Nardi has wire i.imgur.com/7li3SkW.pngThanks for the pictures. As I often buy repros with the mind of reselling, I doubt I will go the nude route. Truly dyed dark green might be neat for a cuttoe or hirschfanger.
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