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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 12, 2017 16:31:37 GMT
The author spent considerable money making sure this technique was explained and illustrated back when creating a book cost more money than most people made in years of work. That does not mean it's a good technique, but it's pretty strong evidence that the author thought it was a threat worth considering in the ring. You are also stretching this thread, though why isn't really clear. You seem to be of the opinion that pommels can't unscrew, and that this was some kind of joke. That's far more difficult to believe than a pommel to the head.
I've said repeatedly I don't know if it was a good technique or just something the author had heard about and thought it wise to analyze in his source. Your response was to raise an armored arm and deflect the pommel. The author says raise your buckler and have spear ready. I think the source won that round for sure.
I don't do harnessfetchen personally. I'm too old and fat. But I do squire for people doing it, and just got through helping with four sessions the past two weekends at the fair. It's interesting to see first hand how different it is from blossfetchen. There are periods in the ring where each fighter stands rather still and makes small movements out of measure to prepare for his attack. Target areas are small and difficult to reach, and the fighters tend to try to avoid the smash that leads to ringen. It is a bit of a chess game. I could see, based on this experimentation, that fighters in the ring out of measure would have time to do something like throw a spear or a pommel as a way of forcing a movement by the opponent even if no real damage is done. If, for example, the opponent did what you suggested and used a forearm armor to block the piece of steel, then he'd be exposing his vulnerable armpit to attack. And he'd be risking damage to his wrist and hand. In which case throwing the pommel was a pretty good plan after all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 20:58:11 GMT
I never said pommels dont cant or shouldnt unscrew. If you have one that does it would either take too much time to remove it, or it would be too unstable to be a decent weapon. If you arent even going to pretend to participate in good faith then there's really no reason to even engage with you, so congratulations on clearing the floor.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 12, 2017 21:07:56 GMT
I never said pommels dont cant or shouldnt unscrew. If you have one that does it would either take too much time to remove it, or it would be too unstable to be a decent weapon. I may be beating a dead horse here but this is just not true. If you have a sword with a simple threaded pommel, you could (before the fight) unscrew it almost all the way, open the fight with the pommel throw (quickly unscrew the last turn) and then rush in. As Cosmoline has again and again pointed out, in harnischfechten, the sword doesn't need a pommel to be useful, it is mainly used as a short spear. So you aren't really giving anything up by not having a pommel but the throw might very well serve as enough distraction to give an advantage when closing in. Also keep in mind that swords were made specifically for (judicial) duels. You could make one with a pommel just barely holding onto the tang, specifically for that one technique. I see it as Cosmoline does. We don't really know what the whole point of the technique is. To me, the theory of it being something the author once saw or heard of and thought worth (funny enough?) to include makes the most sense. It certainly isn't something you would encounter on a regular basis but who knows, it may be a trick shot once attempted by someone. I don't really understand why you so adamantly refuse to allow any other possibility but your own view. You don't know, you cannot know. You don't have to believe it but you really should accept that multiple things are possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 21:18:25 GMT
That otherwise seemingly intelligent people can actually give this joke of a technique legitimate consideration is truly baffling.
Lukas, I gave Rob Dorsey of all people the benefit of the doubt, don't even pretend that I'm not willing to consider even outlandish ideas.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jun 12, 2017 21:26:38 GMT
Intelligent people know that there are things they don't know. It's the less intelligent ones that believe there is nothing beyond their scope.
I don't know what that technique is. It may a joke! It may also be a curiosity the guy who drew it heard of. It may even be something he witnessed. We don't know! But one cannot really exclude any of these theories. I'm just suggesting to remain open-minded, that's all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 21:35:21 GMT
It cant be a joke, Lukas, Cosmoline refuted that because it was expensive. It was in the first non-quoted paragraph at the top of the page.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 21:45:11 GMT
The individual who recorded this technique provided insufficient information and context to reproduce it. The source material is garbage except as a curiosity. You cannot do anything with it. This is a failure.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 12, 2017 21:56:50 GMT
Your reaction to Gladiatoria's curious pommel throw is actually *weirder* than the pommel throw. I don't understand why you can't just say "well that's weird" and move on. I actually agree the scenario looks damned improbable. But then again harnessfetchen gets weird, and has different considerations. You're not in human skin anymore. You're moving inside a steel skin. Hot, difficult to see out of and disorientating. You want to find one of the limited openings and exploit it. And in this case you've got more weapons than you can use in one attack, so why not use part of one to probe his defenses and maybe create an opening? Yeah it's pretty strange but I've seen some weird stuff in these manuscripts. So we have a chuckle and raise an eyebrow.
What we shouldn't do is declare the source a "failure" having no direct knowledge of the duels the author was basing his text on. That smacks of modern arrogance. Of course we can't use it to prepare for duels because we don't have those anymore. But it is something to think about for harness fighting. And while I don't think anyone in our group is going to be chucking steel at each other anytime soon, the subtext of using a distraction to create an opening is worth exploring. We shouldn't close our minds to anything in these texts. They're our only window on the real fighting of the period.
As far as whether it's a joke, I said I find that very unlikely because these manuscripts were very pricey to produce at the time and that kind of humor that plays with set expectations seems very modern to me. It's *possible*, because Germans have always had an odd sense of humor. But I rank it as less likely than the scenario that the author had heard of something like this and included it as a way of reminding the reader to expect the unexpected.
Wait.. the whole of Gladiatoria? There's a lot of good stuff in there!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 22:58:16 GMT
Have you considered that the emperor actually is naked in this scenario? Yes, Cosmoline, the whole of Gladiatoria, nay the whole of Historical European Martial Arts is negated by this one particular description of a supposed technique. I have to assume this is willful at this point. Good day. Attachments:
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 12, 2017 23:47:28 GMT
Meaning what? That they're really wearing armor on their hands? Yes I have considered that and it's a possibility. Your own interpretation isn't clear here. You seem to be thinking that we should stand in judgment of the plate and tear it from the book. Which I think misunderstands the whole purpose of studying it.
I can think of scenarios where it might be useful. That doesn't mean I think it was a good plan in period. It's offered as one option among many for the first phase of a duel under the spear section. And it's a bit odd. So it raises some questions. That's it. To go further and say it shouldn't be read or should be struck from the book because we think it's silly? I will never agree to that. These are primary sources. We don't get to slice portions out.
Even with the very strange bits from Mair, we don't get to tear out the goofy pages where men fight each other with a selection of garden tools. People have actually worked with these plates and found them useful! Which I guess they would be if you were in a hedge fight.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 23:52:02 GMT
Here, I will clarify my interpretation since it is somehow not clear to you:
It is a dumb technique.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 12, 2017 23:53:30 GMT
NOT IF IT WORKS. Which, if you threw your hand up to block the pommel it likely would. Running into combat mother naked and painted blue is a dumb technique, except when it scares the other guys so much they run away. Sticking slow matches in your beard is stupid unless it scares people into giving you treasure. It's unusual. But that doesn't make it "dumb." The only dumb thing to do is to pretend know enough to proclaim a primary source technique "dumb"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 23:54:50 GMT
It doesn't work.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 12, 2017 23:57:30 GMT
Try your response and see!! Stick your armored arm in front of an incoming steel pommel. The TEXT'S suggested response would probably work. But that just reinforces the validity of the text. Your idea would get your forearm injured, expose your armpit to attack and risk creating an opening for the opponent.
In other words, the very fact that you figure you can just put your arm in front of it and it will bounce off harmlessly is evidence that a common response to the thrown pommel could indeed create an injury and an opening for attack.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 0:02:14 GMT
OK let's see
Criteria for this technique to work:
Weapon must be tampered with pre-duel Target must be artificially restricted from responding or countering in time. Thrower must accurately hit helmet-sized target at an unknown distance in spite encumbrance of harness and restriction of vision, reliably, exceeding the performance of modern day professional athletes with scientifically superior training methodology than anything the pre-modern era could hope to have, possibly mid-sprint. Projectile must impact target with sufficient force to either drop target, or daze target for sufficient time for thrower to close an unknown distance upon target
Did I miss anything?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 0:04:32 GMT
Try your response and see!! Stick your armored arm in front of an incoming steel pommel. The TEXT'S suggested response would probably work. But that just reinforces the validity of the text. Your idea would get your forearm injured, expose your armpit to attack and risk creating an opening for the opponent. In other words, the very fact that you figure you can just put your arm in front of it and it will bounce off harmlessly is evidence that a common response to the thrown pommel could indeed create an injury and an opening for attack. Close "spear cast" distance in the time it takes someone to bring their armored forearm in front of their face to deflect a projectile and put it back down. Or are they accurately throwing the pommel mid sprint now? That isn't mentioned in the text.
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Post by leviathansteak on Jun 13, 2017 0:19:22 GMT
Criteria for this technique to work:
Weapon must be tampered with pre-duel - yes not that hard to believe
Target must be artificially restricted from responding or countering in time. - no, the point is to get him to respond to the pommel while you rush him
Thrower must accurately hit helmet-sized target at an unknown distance in spite encumbrance of harness and restriction of vision, reliably, exceeding the performance of modern day professional athletes with scientifically superior training methodology than anything the pre-modern era could hope to have, possibly mid-sprint. - is it really so difficult to throw a metal ball at someone then rush him?
Projectile must impact target with sufficient force to either drop target, or daze target for sufficient time for thrower to close an unknown distance upon target - no, the point is to get him to respond to the pommel while you rush him
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 0:22:18 GMT
Unless the forearm is broken. Armor isn't made from unobtanium. The stuff on typical vambraces is kept light to allow for movement. Even if we assume they would have been wearing gauntlets but the artist got tired of drawing them (a real possibility), the idea of putting your FOREARM in front of an oncoming steel ball is disturbing. You could get hurt. So the text says use your tools. Maybe someone did do as you suggested, and that's why the text goes over the scenario and suggests a better plan. We don't know.
As leviathansteak notes, if you do nothing more than distract him and get him to move out of his defense, you've accomplished something worthwhile. You can still half sword or use your spear on the offense. If you manage to bean his helm and rattle him, that's great. If you miss, well you still have your weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 0:45:23 GMT
Getting the target to respond only matters if he can bridge the distance before he recovers why can you guys not understand that? You aren't suggesting he's throwing the pommel with halfsword range I hope!
At a far distance, there's no chance of a surprise, and little chance of a successful hit.
At close distance there's no reason why a single time counter wouldnt just drop the attacker, unless you want to suggest that you can juggle a pile of weapons, apparently a buckler too, chamber a throw, AND keep a direct line of attack closed off simultaneously.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 0:57:09 GMT
He would be throwing it in a ring at the range of a spear toss. That's a SPEAR not a javelin. So we're not talking very many steps to reach the target with the spear. You also have to understand that when you're in harness, you often don't know what's happening to your harness. Something smacking into it may make you worry that a point has come undone--something that happens quite a bit. A hand trying to feel to see if everything is in place is enough to warrant an attack. And as noted, what exactly is there to lose? You won't be fighting from vom tag in harness. You half sword anyway.
Hey the opponent might do something stupid like stick a hand out in front of the pommel and break a finger or small bone. That can have a major impact on the fight.
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