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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 16:51:44 GMT
It all comes back to a steel pommel flying at you. Is that a thing in existence? I say yes it is, and that throwing stuff at your enemy is *literally* the oldest trick in the book. Others say no it's impossible and armor makes you immune from flying round objects.
The nuances of how fast people move and how big an advantage the impact would give, like any other move in fighting, depend on the players and the circumstances. IF the flying pommel can at least hurt and distract a person in harness, THEN it is a technique worth exploring as you prepare to go into combat for your life and potentially your eternal soul. If the pommel cannot, then it's a waste of time. I've spent enough time around armor to know it's excellent at stopping cuts but not as effective at dealing with blunt force. A survey of weapons used against armor supports this conclusion.
So you can respect the primary source and conclude that a heavy steel ball can create problems for someone in harness, or we can go with someone on the internet who says just bat it out of the air with your forearm and it can't possibly hurt you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 16:55:12 GMT
A screwed on pommel is not a warhammer or a mace, Cosmoline. Just because some blunt weapons are effective against armor doesn't mean every improvised blunt object is a good counter to armor.
I hope the dead idiot who recorded this technique is smiling down upon your efforts to champion his cause.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 16:58:04 GMT
If he's a dead idiot, then why is the rest of Gladiatoria full of useful moves?
Also, how heavy do you think a war hammer needed to be to be effective? I think you've been watching too much "Game of Thrones." The weight of the head is often no more than a pommel. And indeed the pommel can be used as the head of a warhammer when you invert the longsword. How many harnessfetchen demonstrations allow mordschlags?
Even you admitted this:
IF YOU CAN SMASH THEM WITH THE POMMEL WHEN IT IS ATTACHED, YOU CAN SMASH THEM WITH IT THROWN. Just as you can either stab with the spear couched or you can stab with the spear thrown.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 13, 2017 17:01:44 GMT
It all comes back to a steel pommel flying at you. Is that a thing in existence? I say yes it is, and that throwing stuff at your enemy is *literally* the oldest trick in the book. Others say no it's impossible and armor makes you immune from flying round objects. The nuances of how fast people move and how big an advantage the impact would give, like any other move in fighting, depend on the players and the circumstances. IF the flying pommel can at least hurt and distract a person in harness, THEN it is a technique worth exploring as you prepare to go into combat for your life and potentially your eternal soul. If the pommel cannot, then it's a waste of time. I've spent enough time around armor to know it's excellent at stopping cuts but not as effective at dealing with blunt force. A survey of weapons used against armor supports this conclusion. So you can respect the primary source and conclude that a heavy steel ball can create problems for someone in harness, or we can go with someone on the internet who says just bat it out of the air with your forearm and it can't possibly hurt you. No, mate. You don't take some dead guy's word for it being a viable combat technique based solely on the merit of it being in an old book. Logic doesn't work that way - argumentum ad antiquitatem.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 17:04:50 GMT
I don't know how viable it would be. Safety considerations limit testing options. But overall, as with any move its effectiveness would depend on a lot of circumstances. I don't even know that it's a *GOOD* technique. I trust that it was something the author felt should be addressed in the manner of an attack and counter. That suggests it is something he saw, did or at least heard of. That's my position. Is it possible? Yes of course. People have been throwing things at each other since they've been people. Armor does not make you immune from impacts. Is it a good plan? Probably not, unless your opponent is stupid enough to raise a lightly armored hand and forearm to stop it! Then hell yeah try to break the idiot's fingers!
The others here believe it's literally *IMPOSSIBLE* for this to have been a technique. And that absolute position leads them to conclude it's either a joke or the author was an idiot. I do not take such an absolute position. I take the position that it's a primary source and we should read it as part of the whole text rather than removing the page with a razor because someone on youtube made a funny video about it that became the world's first genuine HEMA meme (and all respect to him for it.).
There are other silly things in the sources. There are descriptions of how to pin a man down and play a board game while he struggles under you. There are descriptions of how to throw an opponent in a big sack. There's even instructions on how to make someone tell you where their gold is hidden! I don't assume these came up in combat very often, but I do read the sources with the presumption they are being earnest. Does that mean I'm going to bag someone or that I'm going to throw pommels? No. But I think it's a huge mistake to start declaring this or that "IMPOSSIBLE!" and removing it from the text.
Like the rest of the stranger plates, this is one to raise an eyebrow to and maybe have a laugh at. But beyond that we're not really in a position to declare it void and invalid. Earlier generations of scholars decided that it was impossible to grab a sharp sword, and therefore the medieval blades must have been dull and used for bashing. Never say never.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 17:37:17 GMT
It is possible to throw a pommel. It is not possible to remove it with such short measure without inviting devastating counter attack. It is not possible to achieve a desired affect at longer measure as by the time the distance is closed the target will have recovered, if even affected in the first place. This has been discussed at nauseating lengths multiple times in this thread alone.
If the target stands there like a dumb beast, then any number of nonsensical techniques could conceivably work. You could smother him with a codpiece but that doesn't make such a tactic good.
The text you are defending doesn't even give you enough information to do anything with the technique. There's nothing of substance to work with. Its indefensible, and absolutely baffling that otherwise seemingly intelligent people could arrive to any other conclusion.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 18:17:46 GMT
Where are you getting "short measure"? The text makes it clear, as does every other text on harness fighting, that the moves at close measure are half-swording, ringen and dagger. Techniques I had to dodge just this past weekend while acting as judge for the matches. It's awesome stuff. The pommel throw is not a short measure technique.
Says who? If it breaks your bone or beans your forehead or even shifts your mask some degrees to one side it's given enough of an opportunity for attack. Even if there's only a small chance it will work, why not try it? Throwing it does not expose you. You have spear and sword ready to deal with him if he charges you after your throw. The spear never leaves the defensive vertical position in this sequence.
You're hung up on how difficult you think it must be to physically unscrew and throw a pommel and move around afterwards. If you make a sword with a special screw-off pommel, it's reasonable to assume you'd make it unscrew quickly with big threads. If you wanted it to stay put you'd peen it in the usual way. And the stance shown in the text is similar to other defensive positions, with the spear vertical. It's not impossible to throw in harness. Especially if you've practiced hoping to use this trick. You believe for some reason it is IMPOSSIBLE to make this work. Therefore you conclude it's "indefensible." I take the position that it's a technique the author saw fit to address. I don't conclude it's good or bad, merely that it is something within the range of his knowledge and experience. That's it. I don't judge it because as noted the guys in armor are not willing to toss pieces of steel at each other. Which tends to underscore the fact that it does pose a danger even in harness. Not an unreasonable fear given what the pommel can do when attached to the sword and used as a club.
Sure it does! It gives instructions for unscrewing, throwing and following in. On the other side it instructs on how to defend. Instructions far better than your own idea of using Wonder Woman bracers or some nonsense.
Have you even read the source? You seem to be arguing from the meme in instead of from the source out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 19:07:00 GMT
That would be leviathansteak, one page ago. There's a lot of pages now so I can understand you being confused, 8 is a large number. You may disagree with the distance but at least he made the attempt to provide some context other than "spearcast" as a unit of measurement.
If it takes longer for you to close distance than it takes for the target to deflect the projectile, you may as well have not even bothered, all you will have accomplished is having lost a pommel, again assuming you even have a removable one to begin with.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 19:41:31 GMT
Oh I think we can assume it was threaded. And given that we're talking about a *throw*, it's reasonable to conclude it's not in close measure. Otherwise it would be used to beat the other guy.
Which assumes the opponent deflects the projectile without injury or distraction. That's precisely how the text tells you to respond. Use your shield and have your spear at the ready. Not laugh at the silly piece of steel and pretend it can't possibly hurt you. Again I'm going with the text--not you or your wonder woman ideas of wristguard deflection.
As others have observed, you seem to believe that it's worthless because there is a counter. There is a counter to EVERYTHING in martial arts. The throw could work if the counter is not done properly (like your advice of using a wrist). Or it could work if the opponent choose to assume the armor will protect him. It's an attack. You don't wait for attacks that will be 100% successful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 19:45:02 GMT
Oh I think we can assume it was threaded. And given that we're talking about a *throw*, it's reasonable to conclude it's not in close measure. Otherwise it would be used to beat the other guy. Which assumes the opponent deflects the projectile without injury or distraction. That's precisely how the text tells you to respond. Use your shield and have your spear at the ready. Not laugh at the silly piece of steel and pretend it can't possibly hurt you. Again I'm going with the text--not you or your wonder woman ideas of wristguard deflection. As others have observed, you seem to believe that it's worthless because there is a counter. There is a counter to EVERYTHING in martial arts. The throw could work if the counter is not done properly (like your advice of using a wrist). Or it could work if the opponent choose to assume the armor will protect him. It's an attack. You don't wait for attacks that will be 100% successful. I know you are proud of your Wonder Woman quip, but you hold a buckler in your hand, yes? Your hand is attached to your arm isn't it? What happens to your hand and things you hold in it when you raise your arm?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 13, 2017 19:45:32 GMT
For my 2¢ as this discussion is going nowhere, for those that think dismantling your sword in the middle of combat is the way to go, then by all means do so. And for the more conservative, keep your weapon intact and proceed accordingly. I fail to see the point of such a major discussion. Personally, when I see re-enactors disassembling their weapons and throwing the pieces at the opponents during competition I’ll start looking at the argument in a different light.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 19:49:17 GMT
They are also raised. So? My buckler is a heavy steel boss surrounded by an inch thick of treated leather. It's way tougher than the complex finger armor or thin armor on the forearm. And indeed the source tells us to use the buckler. Which makes a lot of sense. A properly used buckler can be used to deflect all types of attacks. An outstretched armored fist or wrist? Not so much. Also, the buckler is not going to send energy right back into my knuckles. The energy goes into the buckler and handle.
Not many deeds of arms I know of allow throwing of steel objects or even spears. BECAUSE IT IS KNOWN TO BE VERY DANGEROUS.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 20:17:02 GMT
For my 2¢ as this discussion is going nowhere, for those that think dismantling your sword in the middle of combat is the way to go, then by all means do so. And for the more conservative, keep your weapon intact and proceed accordingly. I fail to see the point of such a major discussion. Personally, when I see re-enactors disassembling their weapons and throwing the pieces at the opponents during competition I’ll start looking at the argument in a different light. Yeah, you are right. This argument is nearly as dumb as the technique it is centered around. At this point I think I'll disassemble the thread and throw the ignore feature from a safe distance...
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 13, 2017 20:35:10 GMT
Use your wrist guards!
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 23, 2017 1:10:50 GMT
Maybe it was more of a stylistic choice? We're duels ever done for sport? Or was it only for honour?
I can see it being used in a tourney as something done for a stylistic kill, maybe to increase points or popularity? Kind of like splitting an arrow that's already in the bullseye
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 23, 2017 17:38:14 GMT
There absolutely may have been style or ceremonial elements to the move. Even showmanship. Johann Paulus Kal the messer instructor has had some interesting thoughts on this posted on facebook. My point is that ceremony is still very real, and does not render the plates some kind of joke or "bad technique." Other things may well have been going on in this period of harness fighting, though he's much more knowledgeable about that than I am.
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