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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 17:28:15 GMT
I am very happy. How often do you train this technique?
Also, if tinsel armor is insufficient to protect the arm from a thrown pommel, whats the point in even wearing it?
Plan A is to stab the moron while fiddling with his pommel or when he chambers his forceful throw since a gentle lob will accomplish absoluyely nothing.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 17:45:16 GMT
Armor is there to protect against cuts from sword or arrow and, to some extent, impacts. It does not make you immune to damage. The pommel is used to attack opponents in harness most frequently when attached to the end of an inverted longsword. In this case it is being used as a separate weapon. That's interesting but not worthy of derision. Nobody wants to get hit with one. And the pommel should be taken seriously if it's flying at you. It would be foolish to expect it to merely bounce off the thin metal of a forearm or the intricate workings of a gauntlet. You use your tools. In this case you prepare your buckler and spear, as the text states.
OK your idea of using the forearm to block a piece of flying steel a la "Wonder Woman" was not great, but let's give this a try. You see him fiddling and you realize what he's doing. The text says prepare to deflect with the buckler and have your spear at the ready to deal with a subsequent charge. Instead you say try to "stab the moron." He is shown with the spear in the crux of his elbow, longsword in hand. Where is your target? Let's say you hope to hit his left armpit. As you advance, he shifts in equal time and now his left hand is on his spear. He can use this to deflect an incoming thrust away from his weak point. And now you've spent your move attacking him fruitlessly. You can attack his head, and he can respond likewise. If he has pommel in hand he can use it as a direct impact weapon. If his longsword is in hand he can use it. Or go to the dagger. Or indeed if he has the pommel off as you advance, he can proceed to throw it and since you've opted against using your buckler you now have to hope it doesn't do much damage to you or trust that his aim will be off.
There's good reason for the text's emphasis on being careful before advancing. An armored opponent with spear, sword and dagger is not to be taken lightly. In this case the text says stay at the ready and let him throw. You should be able to deflect, and he's losing a part of a weapon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 18:05:08 GMT
I dont know why anyone bothers with using their hands to hold weapons if just hooking them between arm and torso works so well.
Its been adorable but this has taken up enough time and energy. Enjoy your status as defender of the tossed pommel.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 18:07:17 GMT
They are out of measure in harness. That changes things from being in measure out of armor, which is what you seem to be imagining. Again the key to understanding this is to read the entire source and put it in context.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 18:17:09 GMT
They are out of measure in harness. That changes things from being in measure out of armor, which is what you seem to be imagining. Again the key to understanding this is to read the entire source and put it in context. I am well aware that they are in harness, and I've already responded to you about having read this. Your repeated suggesting otherwise is tiresome. Kindly knock it off. I read it, it's still a dumb technique. Reading it again isn't going to make it any less dumb. Trying to frame an implausible set of circumstances to favor this ridiculous maneuver isn't making it any less dumb.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 19:04:08 GMT
It may or may not be effective depending on the circumstances. Just like any other move. It's unusual, which throws people off (ha ha). But part of understanding HEMA lies in setting aside preconceptions and trying to understand a source as a whole. Time and again I've seen "absurd" things in the texts turn out to be pretty danged effective once their context is understood.
Every one of your comments suggest you are imagining fighters out of armor in measure. And yes in that case taking time to unscrew a pommel would be foolish. But at spear-casting range, at the start of a formal duel, it apparently was at least possible enough to warrant discussion in the text.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:08:07 GMT
Guys, let me just get some RSW and I will secretly try this in a sparring session with a spear and helmet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 19:40:45 GMT
Guys, let me just get some RSW and I will secretly try this in a sparring session with a spear and helmet. Go for it, the problems is this will only tell you if you can remove an RSW pommel and throw it at someone. You cant get a sense of what if any effect it would have, how it works on armor, and so forth. Being able to remove the thing and hit the target would be important starting points. It sounds like you need to be at spear casting distance, and either dispatch him or close the spearcast distance before he recovers from the brief distraction, assuming you even hit him with the pommel. Unless theres a weird kind of spear cast, that should be a much wider distance to bridge than a passing step or two. Do you see why I find this unlikely at best? But good luck with your test.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 20:10:52 GMT
Every single move suggested in every single fight book is unlikely. The most obvious--a cut from vom tag or second--is the least likely of all to actually make contact. But you have to move from somewhere and you have to attack. So you try one thing and you try another. You prepare yourself for potentials and you learn to fight better. Perhaps the author was trying to tell us not to assume the attacks will come with the weapons we can see. A lesson repeated in other sources that show one's own weapon turned against the user, or reveal how a sword can become a mace or a leveraging tool.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 20:15:04 GMT
Can you clarify spearcast distance into aproximate feet, yards, or meters whichever unit of measurement is more familiar to you?
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 20:39:08 GMT
The text refers to the first section as taking place "When you initially enter the barricades." This would be when the opponents enter the dueling arena. Probably a fenced-off or demarcated square. I don't know that there was a precise distance, but in this case the opponents are either closing to thrusting distance or staying at throwing distance. It goes over what to do if a throw misses, and various counters. The last play involves the pommel throw. They don't give a yard distance, but in context you would want to be close enough to take advantage of the pommel throw but out of direct thrusting measure. This means if you try to attack when you see him unscrewing the pommel, he will have time to change position. Or to throw it. And the text does not tell us to try to bum rush him.
The next section involves a scenario where "you have now lost both spears and shields." And therefore deals exclusively with attacks within measure for half sword. In armor you have two ways of attacking. Either an impact force enough to damage the person through armor or a thrust that finds flesh through an opening or around the armor. So when you close measure and attack, it doesn't look like a fast slash at an unwary opponent. It's half-sword work and ringen.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 21:30:20 GMT
We dont need exact distance, this isnt a "gotcha" just trying to get a sense of whether we're looking at 10 feet away, 100, etc. If you have to clear a football field, it doesnt matter if the opponent has to shield his face for a flicker of an instant because he will have regained composure long before you bridge the divide.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 9, 2017 22:09:17 GMT
The old german word in gladiatoria translated as "rightly" means ""fast" ("rush" instead of "right"). I think it's an distraction tactic. Throw something, shield raises, thrust below...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 23:00:23 GMT
But you'd have to be close to do that. If I throw something at you from across town, it doesn't matter if you raise your shield because by the time I got to you, you'd have gotten your composure back.
You've got to be far enough away to actually get the pommel off without just eating a sword, but close enough to make the throw itself a threat and even still close enough to actually take advantage of the opening you're supposed to be creating.
Some guys are saying you've got to be close for the surprise factor, another is saying you're a spearthrow away, these are two different things.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 9, 2017 23:16:55 GMT
Those old drawings and writings show something that works as an idea, but not every detail.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 23:27:33 GMT
Or they just show something that was an idea, I think this one is like a comic book ad for X Ray glasses or Dr. Kung Foo's Death Grip
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 9, 2017 23:34:35 GMT
This thing was not made in Disney-times.
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 10, 2017 0:35:35 GMT
That's exactly right. Nobody was buying these for fun. The text is early 15th century when judicial duels were still a serious concern. This is not something from Mair a century later when it was becoming more of a curiosity and the printing press was creating a market beyond those who's hide was immediately on the line.
And of course there are a lot of missing pieces here. It's not really Liechtenauer, and we don't know what the spacing would be. We can only make an educated guess. We don't know where the idea of thrown pommels came from exactly, or whether it had been used in a duel. It may be the author had heard of so-and-so dying after the other fellow took him by surprise with a tossed pommel, and included it as a consideration in his treatise so people would be aware that such tricks could happen and to be wary.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 12:59:12 GMT
So to clarify, you don't train this technique, you have no real idea of what the distance involved is, but you are certain enough that it is a valid technique to have stretched this thread into its fifth page based on the fact that someone wrote about it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 10, 2017 13:17:12 GMT
It's a riddle like Mona Lisa's smile. You seem to have as much fun with it as we do.
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