howler
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Post by howler on Nov 12, 2016 21:14:04 GMT
But why didn't Europeans make daggers with the same curve? Colder climate, thicker clothing, more slashing protection??? ... drink. The roman Pugio was not far away from arab daggers, but straight. Ok, a karambit is similar. Good question. Guess we would have to delve into the definitions of dagger, short sword, medieval utility chopper, etc... I do know (though I'm by no means an expert) that Europe did have many nasty curved blades of different type. Daggers, generally, are thinner and therefor lighter and easier to carry...even used for utilitarian tasks such as food utensils. Later, you often had a dagger as an augment to larger weapon (rapier, small sword, short sword/hanger). Lets not forget the armor deal, also, as you needed pointy stuff for gaps and such. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 12, 2016 21:34:57 GMT
Afaik a dagger has a primary thrusting function, there were two edged daggers (we all know), single edge daggers and daggers without edge at all, like icepicks against mail.
For thrusting forward a straight blade has it's reasons.
A broad triangular blade may give additional weight and cutting power.
A thinner curved blade like a karambit perhaps matches some arm/wrist moves for piercing.
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howler
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Post by howler on Nov 13, 2016 20:15:13 GMT
In addition to some of the aspects you just pointed out, really, the largest blade length possible which would technically be defined as a knife. Really, a knife that exhibits short sword attributes, that you can kill with a jab, rather than have to telegraph because you had to throw your body into the punch (James Keatings Riddle of Steel and Bagwell Bowies). hey howler what specific books or dvds are you referring to I might grab em. Yeah, I can't find the dvd, but I typed in James Keating on the web. He is a knife fighting guru of sorts (real interesting character) who trained people in hells canyon on the snake river. You will see Riddle of Steel, Legacy of Steel, etc...but look for the part where he talks about the virtues of longer blades (particularly bowie). The key thing to understand is when a blade gets to a certain length and weight, its ability DRASTICALLY changes, as you can now use it as a short sword. Jabs can kill rather than in boxing where they set you up for the punch (when you use your whole body for energy, thus telegraphing...which is easy to block or avoid). At a certain blade length (around 9-10") tip speed doubles over a smaller knife (flyswatter effect). Small knives are still great for certain grappling maneuvers and such. |
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howler
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Post by howler on Nov 13, 2016 20:19:18 GMT
Afaik a dagger has a primary thrusting function, there were two edged daggers (we all know), single edge daggers and daggers without edge at all, like icepicks against mail. For thrusting forward a straight blade has it's reasons. A broad triangular blade may give additional weight and cutting power. A thinner curved blade like a karambit perhaps matches some arm/wrist moves for piercing. Yup, and paired with long trapping guards (Main Gauche), those daggers are fast (ya don't need chopping ability, but still have some slash). |
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 13, 2016 21:44:41 GMT
Bit late to the party but here's my current favorite:   Very substantial 10" blade, short back edge and a good point that has no trouble with even the thickest clothing. Enough mass to really do damage in a chop or cut yet quick enough to not be outmaneuvered by shorter or lighter blades. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 13, 2016 21:51:16 GMT
It doesn't look very arabian!
(stiff upper lip)
((drooling))
(((geiles Trumm!))) (germ. = really nice!)
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howler
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Post by howler on Nov 14, 2016 0:44:25 GMT
Bit late to the party but here's my current favorite: Very substantial 10" blade, short back edge and a good point that has no trouble with even the thickest clothing. Enough mass to really do damage in a chop or cut yet quick enough to not be outmaneuvered by shorter or lighter blades. What is it? To bad I'm a leftie, but could use it in a pinch. |
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Nov 14, 2016 6:02:19 GMT
It is my interpretation of a Rugger or Hauswehr, essentially the late medieval equivalent to a Bowie knife or early period seax. This is the right-handed version with the Nagel on the outside, protecting the knuckles. There are originals for both left-handed and right-handed use. You can read more about it here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/48939/finished-hauswehr-rugger?page=2 |
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Post by pellius on Nov 14, 2016 14:00:33 GMT
Awesome blade.
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Post by bloodwraith on Dec 26, 2016 5:51:54 GMT
The blade that facilitates the most ferocity, speed and ability to remove the threat as effectively as possible.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Mar 2, 2017 19:08:20 GMT
Excellent stuff nternal805! Absolutely nothing beats trying stuff out in real life. Thanks for posting your testing results. Did you by any chance take pictures?
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howler
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Post by howler on Mar 3, 2017 5:46:15 GMT
Excellent stuff nternal805! Absolutely nothing beats trying stuff out in real life. Thanks for posting your testing results. Did you by any chance take pictures? Unfortunately, I do not have photos or video. It was a lot of informal testing that was done through out the years of deciding on what folders to carry for defensive use. This is because I have a pretty large and varied collection of them. I always did it with a few things in mind: A base cutting medium(pork shoulder, a melon, a squash or something else with some mass and solidity). Then I would wrap it in seran wrap(any plastic wrap or even a rubber glove). THEN I would wrap it in clothing. I figured these may stimulate the different tissues you would encounter underneath clothing. Later on I would just wrap my B.O.B heavy bag ( www.amazon.com/Century-Fitness-B-Body-Opponent/dp/B00022KIYY) in plastic wrap and then put different articles of clothing on it . This really tears it up but I can just eventually buy a replacement top piece. Knives with curves and recurves can slash well. Also, serrations can grab hold of clothing and cut amazingly well, and remember that they are chisel ground, meaning the knife edge is at an even more acute angle (the most of all the blade edge designs). There are some YouTube videos of people doing tests with pork in various levels of clothing with both serrated and non serrated models of the same type. Among the hordes of knives, I have a fully serrated Spyderco Endura, Cold Steel XL Serrated Vaquero Voyager (5,5" Aus8 bld.), and Talwar XL in both serrated and non serrated styles (5,5" in XHP...or whatever it is, newer steel). |
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howler
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Post by howler on Mar 3, 2017 5:55:03 GMT
Another thing I have noticed and it is the most alarming in terms of defense is that almost any halfway decent knife(meaning even a kitchen knife) will STAB right through even 4 or 5 layers of clothing. This puts things in perspective because you are likely to run into a cheaper kitchen knife in an altercation then a good one. Yup, that is the bummer, as you may not even know you were stabbed, but are now a potential dead man walking. Slashing works defensively because nobody wants a huge, diagonal, bone deep slice across the face, or lost fingers. And really, your probably running away while swinging at the hands, fingers, wrists reaching out toward you. Stabbing is done a lot while in the clinch...a most horrible position because there really are no winners in that kind of a knife fight, but I would never carry a knife with no stabbing ability because you can still end a confrontation with a single thrust (or have no choice but to be in that horrible clinch...stab, stab, stab...gulp). |
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howler
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Post by howler on Mar 4, 2017 4:52:18 GMT
In my tests the serrated vaquero outperformed the plain edge talwar by a large margin in slashing. It did have the tendency to drag a bit and snag with some slashes but would still power through. The talwar and the holdout were two of the designs I was surprised with, in that their performance was not that great. It might be that too much of the edge is impacting at once against the clothing and it "slides" off without delivering the cutting power inward. There are some YouTube vids featuring the serrated Vaquero and plain (I believe) Clip point voyagers as well as a Serrated vs plain edge Talwar. The serrated seemed to do better in both tests, but I must say those Talwar are still nasty slicers. Really, its the stabbing potential (stronger tip...and remember, super thick clothing negates the slash altoghether) and raking ability that also drew me to the talwars (and that they make better EDC knives in plain edge format). However, after saying that, I would go with both the serrated Talwar and Vaquero, which both look like CRAZY prehistoric dinosaur from hell/shark teeth/claws or something that Godzilla crapped out his arse. Truly, the two best fighting folders out there (in my humble opinion). Best deal for the money was certainly when Cold Steel unloaded the Aus 8 XL models for under $40. When you choke up on the handle you have seven inches of reach! |
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howler
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Post by howler on Apr 12, 2017 5:18:04 GMT
Howler, This thread and discussion made me get back to the worksharp yesterday and put as good an edge as possible on my plain edged 6" holdout and 5.5" talwar. I brought the bevel up quite a bit on both, basically blending in the edge and grind. I used a piece of sponge behind the belt to basically create a convex edge. Now they both perform a lot better. Now with just snap cuts they are splitting open 4-5" cuts in t-shirts. Convex is best, and that worksharp puts on a good one. The reach on those Talwars is actually 8" if you choke up, so a snap cut with that would be doom to a bad guy. Those Cold Steel mega folders (Vaquero, Talwar, Holdout, and others) are the best fighting folders you can get, particularly with the new steel, but the price does go up. |
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Post by 28shadow on Apr 13, 2017 5:58:45 GMT
I personally carry a CS Voyager Clip Point XL everywhere I go. Excellent blade, and once you work out how to deploy it quickly you don't really need a wave function. Still not nearly as quick as a fixed blade, but even the XL is more concealable than most of those.
I'll probably retire it from service soon and replace it with that new CS folding gladius like thing.
Oh, I also carries a CS Ti-Lite for a while until I messed up the blade (my fault, not knife failure). Excellent knife, quick to deploy to my extended grip, and a semi neautral grip allowed me to switch between icepick, saber, and my palm reinforced grip just fine.
Hell, if I legally could I would carry that ti-lite 6" model. A folding rapier, if you would.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Apr 13, 2017 7:24:50 GMT
I personally carry a CS Voyager Clip Point XL everywhere I go. Excellent blade, and once you work out how to deploy it quickly you don't really need a wave function. Still not nearly as quick as a fixed blade, but even the XL is more concealable than most of those. I'll probably retire it from service soon and replace it with that new CS folding gladius like thing. Oh, I also carries a CS Ti-Lite for a while until I messed up the blade (my fault, not knife failure). Excellent knife, quick to deploy to my extended grip, and a semi neautral grip allowed me to switch between icepick, saber, and my palm reinforced grip just fine. Hell, if I legally could I would carry that ti-lite 6" model. A folding rapier, if you would. I have a tilight 6. Love that thing. It's the most assassin looking thing I have ever seen |
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Post by 28shadow on Apr 13, 2017 14:39:38 GMT
I personally carry a CS Voyager Clip Point XL everywhere I go. Excellent blade, and once you work out how to deploy it quickly you don't really need a wave function. Still not nearly as quick as a fixed blade, but even the XL is more concealable than most of those. I'll probably retire it from service soon and replace it with that new CS folding gladius like thing. Oh, I also carries a CS Ti-Lite for a while until I messed up the blade (my fault, not knife failure). Excellent knife, quick to deploy to my extended grip, and a semi neautral grip allowed me to switch between icepick, saber, and my palm reinforced grip just fine. Hell, if I legally could I would carry that ti-lite 6" model. A folding rapier, if you would. Here in california, there is no length limit on locking folders. Did you feel that the handle on the ti-lite was slippery at all? Like when it comes to a hard stab? That's the only reason I wasn't so sure about that one. Nope, never felt like it was slippery. No length limit, eh? So there is a llace in the US besides Arizona you can carry the Espada XL... |
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howler
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Post by howler on May 2, 2017 21:32:30 GMT
I just purchased a sweet tactical fixed blade (in fact, a few of them), ideal for use at close range when someone is grappling with your gun. It's the Blackhawk Nightedge designed by Allen Elishewitz from the MOD Nightwing, which is identical, but with 1085 instead of S30V steel. This thing is currently like $135 on Knife Center, and is sold on many sites for over $100, though I see it on Amazon at around $50. Why did I purchase a few? Because they are currently on Smokey Mountain Knife Works for under $25! It is a thick blade with a strong tip which can be used for outdoor applications as well. Unholy quality for that price point, though you may wish to touch up the edge to make it a bit sharper, as it is quite a thick 6" spike for the blade width. You find a better blade at its size for the price...your a better man than me. |
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howler
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Post by howler on May 2, 2017 21:35:38 GMT
Nope, never felt like it was slippery. No length limit, eh? So there is a llace in the US besides Arizona you can carry the Espada XL... Yeah as long as it's a not a gravity knife(butterfly) or Automatic then there is no state length law on carrying. I actually have the old, g10, Aus-8 espada xl. It's ok but the sheer size of the closed length and width of it just completely fills the pocket. It's also very clunky and clumsy to deploy out of the pocket. I think the new black g-10 version is probably better and the aluminum one is probably superior too. The newer, updated models are all superior to the old ones in my experience. Ya might be interested in the item discussed in my post, above. Nasty little devil it is. |
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