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Post by Onimusha on Mar 8, 2016 23:44:08 GMT
Was the myth busters quip meant to be smug or just condescending? Inquiring minds want to know Neither! It's one of my favorite shows, and a really good source for clips demonstrating all sorts of things in practice. Sure can - and I've been saying as much. Just pointing out that a gunshot doesn't have the energy to significantly move a regular sized person, as such, let alone lift one off the ground. IOW, bullets from man portable weapons cannot bowl you over by force, but can knock you down by surprise. People don't stumble back when shot because of the bullets pushing them, but because they lose their balance. PS. ...and that's why I assume Onimusha wasn't talking about a shotgun physically throwing the deputy off the porch, just to be clear. You're missing the point. The point is that I said something. That is intolerable to certain people. Anyway, the point I was making was that, if you're wearing armor, even though the projectile isn't entering your body, you're absorbing every bit of energy that projectile had (there's those physics everyone has a PhD in), which, in the case of a shotgun, is an awful lot.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 9, 2016 4:34:43 GMT
So we're not allow to debate something you say.
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Post by applejack on Mar 10, 2016 22:46:24 GMT
Those people are likely AR fans, and while some of what they said has merit, IMO not all of it is correct. Like Munk said, it is extremely rare to hear about a home invasion where someone is wearing plate armor. Most criminals don't expect anyone to be armed; if they did suspect someone in the home was armed, they'd look for an easier target rather than suit up to minimize the danger of being shot at. That's simple logic. On the other hand, it never hurts to have something with a higher capacity for when you need it. As in a riot scenario, where there may be a number of assailants. In that case, an AR would likely do you more good than a shotgun. Of course, so would an AK, or an M1a, Mini-14/30, FAL, or any other semi-auto long gun with a removable magazine. And to be quite honest, take that reasoning a step further: in a large-scale riot, when there is a horde of people intent on doing you harm, a select-fire weapon or true machine-gun would work even better to protect you and your home. A .50 caliber M2 on your roof or in the yard would make short work of a mob in most scenarios. What it boils down to, IMHO, is that, ideally, you should have multiple options for different scenarios. When there are 1 or 2 intruders, a shotgun works very well. When there are 20, maybe not so much. However, in most cases, a shotgun (coupled with a sidearm if you like) is perfectly adequate to deal with a home invasion. Just my $.02, hope that helps. Alan that what I thought. yeah, having a 30rd MSR would be good but, shotguns cost less, ammo is easier to find(when there was no handgun,rifle or 22lR ammo there was lots of 00 and slugs at W mart) and you use it for both hunting and home use. But I can hearing about this plate wearing attacks from a lot of people. They had in in shotgun new (they said the 45acp and AR were they best ) and G&A. Look like there trying to sell even more AR's.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 12, 2016 8:21:14 GMT
I'll bet that if you loaded a 12 GA with buckshot, put the buttstock an inch in front of your face, then fired, you'd be knocked over. Not that it matters. The only thing I hate about my AR-15 is how terrible of a club it makes.
Then again, I'd feel adequately prepared with my sawed-off (legal length) single-shot 12ga and my pistol for most anything short of starving hordes at my gate. Or a guy with an AR-15.
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Mar 14, 2016 17:31:59 GMT
I'll bet that if you loaded a 12 GA with buckshot, put the buttstock an inch in front of your face, then fired, you'd be knocked over. Not that it matters. Knocked over??? You'd be knocked OUT.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 15, 2016 3:10:30 GMT
It would hurt but not knock you out.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 15, 2016 5:16:22 GMT
I've got a squishy rubber recoil pad on mine. I think it'd still possibly concuss.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 15, 2016 18:42:57 GMT
You won't be under-guned with THIS...
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Post by bigpete on Mar 16, 2016 6:14:09 GMT
That is cool
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 16, 2016 21:04:09 GMT
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 17, 2016 5:25:02 GMT
Honestly, though, I think an 18.5" barrel 12 gauge is enough to handle most any close-range threat. It's just harder to make 200 yard head shots or lay down cover fire with.
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Post by chrisoro on Apr 16, 2016 23:52:56 GMT
7 shots? My Wingmaster has a capacity of only 4+1, which is not problem at all because there are neither huge herds of zombies or any hordes of armored orcs around here, and I also know how tactical reloading works. Also, people generally don't cease to care about self-preservation when being shot at, just because their upper body is covered in body armor.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Dec 22, 2016 9:44:17 GMT
I don't agree with Findlithui on much... but I have the exact same weapon next to my bed (at home... here in the Middle East not so much) for the same reasons... and like him, I have a gun safe full of other options.
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Post by vinland on Dec 22, 2016 10:08:44 GMT
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Post by bluetrain on Dec 22, 2016 14:12:41 GMT
Fairbairn wrote in one of his books about what happens when people get shot. He ultimately said that the more he learned, the less certain he was about anything. But the police force he was associated with (Shanghai) principally used .45 automatic--with full metal jacket ammunition. He also said that when they learned that the bad guys were armed with .30 Mauser pistols was when everyone went looking for bullet-proof vests.
He also mentions holding something, a shield I think, that was hit with a pistol bullet and the impact was barely noticeable. He also said that being on the business end of the gun was very frightening, meaning looking at the gun being fired. He also recommended shotguns for home defense.
You have to think about the physics involved in a shooting. If the projectile penetrates the body, especially if it exits the other side, how can it push the body backwards at the same time? At any rate, that's just the mechanics of the thing. A living target will also have a physiological reaction. Fairburn explains that by discussing how people will react from a wounding in different parts of the body. If you think about it, you've probably had enough of your own experiences to understand perfectly well what happens, unless you've led a charmed life.
I've never been shot but I've certainly been knocked down a few times. Boxers get knocked down with some frequency, though not "knocked off their feet," and not necessarily knocked out, either. You have to understand what I'm trying to say here (at the risk of having said it before somewhere else here). A person can be literally knocked down by a gunshot wound, mainly to the head, sometimes to other parts of the body. Exactly the same thing happens to game animals. Notice I say "down," not "out." Most hunters know that a deer, for instance, can be knocked down with a shot and then seconds later, get up and run away. I can also assure you that a whitetail deer with both hips broken will do his darndest to get away, even if he doesn't get far or go very fast.
It is true that the human head is a hard target (some people are very hard-headed) and also a small target. A head wound can also bleed like crazy, yet not be life-threatening (because it just looks like it bleeds a lot but doesn't). But in a gunfight, sometimes the head is the most exposed part of the body.
Curiously enough, I have three or four photographs of both my son and my father when they were both in the army (not together, of course) and they both have shotguns in two of the photos. My father in another photo has a .45 revolver in a reverse draw holster and my son has a pistol in a drop-leg holster. They both made it through their time overseas without a scratch. They kept their head down.
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Post by howler on Dec 22, 2016 21:04:38 GMT
Empirically, the choice is quite clear. AR15 carbine with sling (for hands free manipulation when needed). The police, SWAT, military ALL use them when entering buildings. When/if a conflict is taken outside...AR RULES. High cap, low recoil, quicker follow up shots, surgical accuracy, and all with the USABLE energy (14" penetration in gel with hollow points) of a .44 magnum. Someone in the unit has a shotgun to be used mainly as a breaching tool. Now, does this mean I wont still grab a handgun from the nightstand, shotgun, or M1A...nope. But one should use the handgun to get to the rifle (and if you have a belt holster, you would still have the handgun on your side). Who knows, if you enter my home, I may just chop/stab you with a blade...or make you hot chocolate.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Dec 22, 2016 22:16:03 GMT
Empirically, the choice is quite clear. AR15 carbine with sling (for hands free manipulation when needed). The police, SWAT, military ALL use them when entering buildings. When/if a conflict is taken outside...AR RULES. High cap, low recoil, quicker follow up shots, surgical accuracy, and all with the USABLE energy (14" penetration in gel with hollow points) of a .44 magnum. Someone in the unit has a shotgun to be used mainly as a breaching tool. Now, does this mean I wont still grab a handgun from the nightstand, shotgun, or M1A...nope. But one should use the handgun to get to the rifle (and if you have a belt holster, you would still have the handgun on your side). Who knows, if you enter my home, I may just chop/stab you with a blade...or make you hot chocolate. Mmmmmm... I love a good hot chocolate.
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Post by howler on Dec 23, 2016 7:51:50 GMT
Empirically, the choice is quite clear. AR15 carbine with sling (for hands free manipulation when needed). The police, SWAT, military ALL use them when entering buildings. When/if a conflict is taken outside...AR RULES. High cap, low recoil, quicker follow up shots, surgical accuracy, and all with the USABLE energy (14" penetration in gel with hollow points) of a .44 magnum. Someone in the unit has a shotgun to be used mainly as a breaching tool. Now, does this mean I wont still grab a handgun from the nightstand, shotgun, or M1A...nope. But one should use the handgun to get to the rifle (and if you have a belt holster, you would still have the handgun on your side). Who knows, if you enter my home, I may just chop/stab you with a blade...or make you hot chocolate. Mmmmmm... I love a good hot chocolate. And since I like your posts...with marshmallows. Shotguns are a nice thing to have, they can be relatively inexpensive, effective for defense, and have survival value in hunting small animals. But the AR type platform is a no brainer, which is why ALL the military/police use them.
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Post by bluetrain on Dec 23, 2016 11:51:54 GMT
Of course, you still need a sniper rifle.
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Post by howler on Dec 23, 2016 19:49:32 GMT
Of course, you still need a sniper rifle. Yup, in the form of a scoped hunting rifle. Even certain Ironed sighted rifles would work for getting large game...and two legged predators (eating wise, post apocalyptic cannibalism should/would be a separate and WILDLY intriguing post). Honestly, in a post apocalyptic world, humans would probably be (within a month or so) the only big game in town...gulp.
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