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Post by applejack on Mar 5, 2016 21:40:27 GMT
Well I was out at the range and a few people were talking about how under gun you would be with a shotgun for home defense or if the riots like in ferguson were to happen here. they were saying that a AR is what you need cause even with deer slugs a shotgun can't stop or drop people in plate(why would you need to ) and that if you get attacked they could be a large group were 7rd would not get the job done.
Now too me that sound like just AR guys running off at the mouth but what do you guys think? I know a shotguns stopping power is something no one needs to question and i have seen steel shotgun slugs and also if was carrying any long gun i would have a handgun for back up anyways so really is one at a lose with a 870 7+1 or a 590 with 9+1 and handgun if a shtf or a large riots?
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Post by munk on Mar 5, 2016 23:25:59 GMT
People using plate armor in home invasions / riots is pretty unheard of. Not to say that it can't happen (or hasn't happened) but it seems quite unlikely, and is not something worth being that concerned about IMO. The capacity issues seems more valid, particularly for situations where you're likely to encounter larger groups of assailants (such as riots). You can't really count on a one shot = one kill strategy in any real world application, but even if you could, 7 rounds may not be enough depending on how large of a group you happen to come against. Of course, this is all just a thought exercise. I'd expect that being armed with either a shotgun or AR would be sufficient for the majority of home invasion and riot situations you might find yourself in. People really don't like the idea of being shot, and will usually try to avoid that outcome once they realize that you have the potential of putting holes in them. After all, as a criminal or group of criminals, why risk being shot when you could just go after an easier target? [EDIT] Of course, there is always the Keltec KSG bullpup shotgun Holds 14 shells + 1 in the chamber, or 24 of those Aguila mini shells!
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Mar 6, 2016 3:29:18 GMT
Those people are likely AR fans, and while some of what they said has merit, IMO not all of it is correct. Like Munk said, it is extremely rare to hear about a home invasion where someone is wearing plate armor. Most criminals don't expect anyone to be armed; if they did suspect someone in the home was armed, they'd look for an easier target rather than suit up to minimize the danger of being shot at. That's simple logic.
On the other hand, it never hurts to have something with a higher capacity for when you need it. As in a riot scenario, where there may be a number of assailants. In that case, an AR would likely do you more good than a shotgun. Of course, so would an AK, or an M1a, Mini-14/30, FAL, or any other semi-auto long gun with a removable magazine.
And to be quite honest, take that reasoning a step further: in a large-scale riot, when there is a horde of people intent on doing you harm, a select-fire weapon or true machine-gun would work even better to protect you and your home. A .50 caliber M2 on your roof or in the yard would make short work of a mob in most scenarios.
What it boils down to, IMHO, is that, ideally, you should have multiple options for different scenarios. When there are 1 or 2 intruders, a shotgun works very well. When there are 20, maybe not so much. However, in most cases, a shotgun (coupled with a sidearm if you like) is perfectly adequate to deal with a home invasion.
Just my $.02, hope that helps. Alan
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Post by Alexander on Mar 6, 2016 15:50:14 GMT
When riots or looting take place the people involved are not inclined to be shot for their beliefs. They are trying to grab some freebies and they aren't going to risk their life for a cell phone or a pair of sneakers. Remember when one of these riots took place forget where (there have been a few over the last few years) but a immigrant store owner protected his place with a 38spcl revolver. Just standing there showing it was enough to deter the mob. If your talking about a full scale societal breakdown down? A belt fed Browning 50 cal might not be enough.
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Post by MOK on Mar 6, 2016 16:52:32 GMT
Seriously, rioters =/= zombies. Real life =/= FPS survival horror.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 6, 2016 16:55:31 GMT
There was a time when I had the option to carry a XM-177 or a shotgun. I most often choose the shotgun. My favourite was a Winchester M97, I think it had a 20” barrel. At any rate it was fairly short and the sucker had no disconnector. I liked the XM-177 but that Winchester was something else and I really bonded to it. For home defence I’d opt for a shotgun. It is sufficient to take down an intruder and is less likely to penetrate a wall where another family member may be. As far as plate is concerned it is highly unlikely to be encountered. To me the advantages of a shotgun outweigh the disadvantages.
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Post by Onimusha on Mar 7, 2016 1:03:01 GMT
Thugs in armor is getting to be a growing problem around here. They steal it from police cruisers (ain't that a riot?). Armor or no, nobody is shrugging off a shotgun load. I know a deputy that had do undergo a series of surgeries and is still having problems after being blown off a porch (no hyperbole. There was a period of time when no part of his body was in contact with the ground.) In his body armor with a .410.
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Post by munk on Mar 7, 2016 5:47:58 GMT
...and is less likely to penetrate a wall where another family member may be. A shotgun is a great weapon for home defense, but this is a very dangerous myth which is why I feel compelled to say something every time I come across it. Shotguns will penetrate walls with no problem. Even bird shot, which is not recommended for self-defense due to it's lack of penetration, will penetrate 2 layers of drywall. 00 Buck will go through at least 8 layers of drywall (which is analogous to 4 interior walls). I'm not saying this to bad mouth shotguns, rifles and pistols are just as bad. But here's the thing, there is no magical bullet that will penetrate 9, 12, or even 20+ inches of flesh and bone, yet will stop dead in a 1/2" thick sheet of drywall. Physics just doesn't work that way. Any gun/round combo that is good at stopping people will be even better at penetrating drywall.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 7, 2016 6:11:34 GMT
Blow up into the air by a hit by a 410ga shotgun, didn't happen not going to happen. Won't happen even with a 12ga inless the person weights 40lbs. Ever did any hunting, also Netwon's law.
But to the question I'll take a rifle.
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Post by MOK on Mar 7, 2016 9:51:59 GMT
Blow up into the air by a hit by a 410ga shotgun, didn't happen not going to happen. Won't happen even with a 12ga inless the person weights 40lbs. Ever did any hunting, also Netwon's law. Although the sheer shock of getting shot at can drop you off a porch easily enough. Not physically throw you off one, just nudge and sting and scare you enough to make you fall off, but that'll get you airborne for a split second just the same.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 7, 2016 10:37:28 GMT
But he makes sound he was lifted off the ground by the shotgun blast, that's not going to happen.
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Post by MOK on Mar 7, 2016 11:48:19 GMT
I imagine it'd feel just about the same, though. You're on your feet, then there's a bang and an impact and you're in the air and then on the ground again and hurting and have no idea what the hell just happened.
But yeah, a gun that sends a man-sized target flying would also send the shooter flying with even greater force. It's not a thing that actually happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 12:32:31 GMT
Depends on how he's standing. If you line it up right you can knock someone off their feet with a strong hit, and a shotgun hits a lot harder than people do.
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Post by MOK on Mar 7, 2016 15:48:46 GMT
A shotgun hits with a lot more velocity than people do, but people have hugely more mass - bodily contact is much, much better than shot or bullets for moving things around (as opposed to making holes in them, which is what guns are for). If you need proof beyond Newton's third law, there are a couple of episodes of Mythbusters on this. To summarize their findings, shooting a normal human-size target with anything from a 9mm handgun through a shotgun loaded with deer slug to a .50 anti-materiel rifle just nudges it the tiniest little bit, BUT that tiny nudge combined with the physical and psychological shock can make you jerk around and fall down, which among other things is how a gunslinger could shoot a gun out of someone's hand (a handgun bullet doesn't have enough power to yank it out of a firm grip, but there's a VERY STRONG reflexive instinct to let go because the impact really stings even if you're not directly hit - and of course you most probably do get hit, downright peppered in fact because the bullet fragments on impact with your gun).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 17:53:38 GMT
Was the myth busters quip meant to be smug or just condescending? Inquiring minds want to know
There are a ton of videos of people getting knocked over after firing their gun from poor stance, this shouldn't even be a question. yes impacts can knock people over.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Mar 7, 2016 18:35:32 GMT
Knocked backward from recoil yes, lifted off there feet and threw backwards no. I've been shooting, hunting and studied ballistics for a long time. Study up on this you will see we are right.
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Mar 7, 2016 18:55:37 GMT
I think you guys are arguing semantics. There is a difference between being knocked over and being knocked back several feet. Remember we are talking knocking a person down, not a box. People stand upright and are fairly unstable platforms. Someone can be knocked off their feet by a gentle nudge if they are caught shifting their weight, for instance when they are in middle of taking a step. I am sure many of the martial artists on this site can attest to that. A shotgun slug hitting someone off balance can certainly knock them down, though more throwing them off balance and causing them to fall than knocking down due to sheer brute force. Same for shooting a gun from a poor stance. It is unlikely that a shotgun can knock a full grown person back several feet from sheer force (as in every movie out there), but it can knock them down if they are caught off balance. So, in short, you are all correct. Edited: To address the OP: Why only have one? No one gun is "best" for everything. Get an AR and a shotgun and you know you're covered!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 19:02:04 GMT
The guy apparently got blown off a porch that doesn't mean he went sailing like an extra in a cheesy action movie. This is like arguing that people can't fall down the stairs because logically they'd just come to a stop on the next lowest step.
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Post by MOK on Mar 7, 2016 20:13:17 GMT
Was the myth busters quip meant to be smug or just condescending? Inquiring minds want to know Neither! It's one of my favorite shows, and a really good source for clips demonstrating all sorts of things in practice. Sure can - and I've been saying as much. Just pointing out that a gunshot doesn't have the energy to significantly move a regular sized person, as such, let alone lift one off the ground. IOW, bullets from man portable weapons cannot bowl you over by force, but can knock you down by surprise. People don't stumble back when shot because of the bullets pushing them, but because they lose their balance. PS. ...and that's why I assume Onimusha wasn't talking about a shotgun physically throwing the deputy off the porch, just to be clear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 21:11:56 GMT
Ok, my bad on inferring something that wasn't intended.
The fall happens because of the body taking a shape that it can't effectively recover from before gravity does its thing, whether it's from an outside kinetic impact (like a slug, a boot, or a car) or an internal psychological or physiological response.
the gunshot didn't hurt it was that sudden compression from the armor and then hitting the ground ;)
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