Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 8, 2015 13:11:02 GMT
This sword's designation as M1859 is some sort of enigma. 1859 was the year the Swedish King Oscar I, son of Charles the XIV, the former Marshall Bernadotte of France, died. According to this site: norskevaapen.no/?p=2254<wbr> ,Norway was the first to adopt this model, which is strange for the Swedes were the number one in the Union. They supplied the king. Anyway, the M1859 designation is what there is and we are stuck with it. Stranger still is the silver Oscar emblem on the grip. One would expect an Oscar II emblem. The French influence is equal with the German in the design of the sword. The pipe back blade is German in heft and size. It feels more like a Cavalry blade. The hilt is typically French and is a variation on the M1845 Infantry hilt, not surprising given the French background of the Swedish king, though it has a permanently fixed downward turned counterguard. The design of the decoration in the guard though, is probably Swedish. No self respecting Frenchman would ever dream up such a confusing array of flowers and Rococo elements. There is no symbolism as far as I can see, no story, just chaos in the style of ,,All the Louis ''. A mid 19th century nightmare. Which makes it quite unique and lovable, as far as sabres go. The hilt is bronze and was gilded of course. Now only the deeper parts of the relief still hold some gilding. The back strap has some nice engraving and a cap on top of the dove head. This cap can be taken off to reveal the peen. It is stuck in the grip - back strap construction by the way of two stout pins. The grip is made from wood and covered in shagreen, with a nice double wire wrap and the silver Oscar emblem on the public side. The blade. This is were the fun starts. This blade is very German, like I already mentioned and thus very, very serious indeed, what with that great Yelman. The funny thing is that neither the seller nor I had an incling as to what we held in our hands. I discovered what was going on only after I cleaned the blade and started looking at the inscriptions. What I read was the collectors dream: ,,Stal Damast'', Swedish for ,, Damast Stahl '', a most sought after type of blade construction. For instance, take the Prussian Infantry Officers Degen or sabre. On sale everywhere for around $500, depending on the state. Now look at what happens when ,, Damast Stahl '' is mentioned. Zoom, the price shoots up to $1250 for starters. Rose Damast is the premium here, but any damast blade will cost you x times the typical standard price. The pattern is hard to see, that is why the seller and I missed it. Polishing is to blame. This also took off a lot of the gilding in the panels at the sides of the blade. but the pattern can be restored to it's former glory with an etch. The blade was made by Wilhelm Schmolz & Co in Solingen. This is stamped on the ricasso and on a plate in the spine of the blade. This plate is separate from the blade itself and I have never seen this construction before, but it sure seems to testify to the pride Wilhelm had in his work. I tried to find out about Wilhelm and what I got was that he had one of the many smaller workshops in Solingen, that made knives, cutlery and flat ware*. Around 1920 the shop made razors under the brand name of ,, Sleipnir '', the name of the famous dragon guarding a vast hoard of treasure, from Nibelungen lore. That was the way things were done at that time in Solingen. The largest firms landed the huge army contracts and farmed a lot of the work out to their smaller contractors. They, in their turn, had a lot of home workers on the pay roll. I think this is the way it was done everywhere in the great centres of industry. Liege and Birmingham functioned in this way. The only recent mentioning of the name Schmolz I could find, is a huge firm, doing stainless steel, the Schmolz und Bickenbach Gruppe. Whether this is a Schmolz from the same family is not clear, though the steel connection suggests it could be. About the scabbard is nothing special to say. It is just your run of the mill two ringed one. I think it is blued, but whether this is original or done later is a guess. I like the design of the drag though. Handling. Let's do some numbers first. This sabre weighs 884 grams without the scabbard and with the scabbard 1354 grams. The POB is 14 cm or 5.5" from the guard. This suggests to me that a good portion of the weight sits in that yelman and that is why it feels so hefty. The width of the blade at the guard is 2.9 cm or 1.14". That makes this a sound fighting sabre, not a Degen. The length of the blade, 79 cm or 31.1", also points in that direction. It feels like a solid chopper and it seems to favour the closed grip. This is funny, because when I tried the open handed grip, with the thumb on the guillon, I discovered a dark spot, slightly more oxidised by way of skin acids, precisely where the thumb would rest if the open handed grip were favoured. Anyway, for me the open handed grip does not work. It does not feel natural with this one. The brass guard, slightly bigger than the M1845's, pulls the weight of the blade back a little, but I must conclude this sabre to be the product of compromise. With this blade one would expect a German hilt. Lots of steel to bring back the POB to say 4" from the guard, to make a niftier fencing sabre. Here the French orientated fraction apparently won the debate and the result is a stout sabre that will do the job, is of a more solid construction than the M1845, but misses out on the M1845's agility and sheer brilliance. I would say and I hope not to offend readers of Swedish nationality or descend, that this a 100% Swedish product. Solid and able to do the job it is supposed to do. Nothing more. Even the guard design seems to be inspired by the intake of lots of ,, brännvin ''.
Notes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_I_of_Sweden www.archivingindustry.com/cutlers&toolmakers/razormakers.htm About Schmolz :: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61938/schmolz-solingen-manufacturer .
Edit: The ,, Jernhuggare '' in the second picture of the blade seems to mean ,, iron cutter ''. Swedish translation of ,, Eisen houwer '', found on many German and Dutch blades. Took me two days to find that out. Darn Swedes!
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Post by Dave Kelly on Mar 9, 2015 1:37:35 GMT
Oscar I is the son of Charles XIV John ( Formerly Marshall Bernadotte of France ). Oscar I was succeded by his Brother as Charles XV in 1859 ( For whatever reason his formal coronation didn't occur until May 1860. ) Charles XV was succeeded by his son, crowned Oscar II. Just to clarify.
W Schmolz Solingen is listed as established 1813-1861 and noted for commissioned swords for Sweden. In 1861 the company changed it's name to Schmolz und Sohn.
Damascus treated steel was a popular high end form of blade making for the aristocratic rich consumer. I have an 1895 Swedish infantry sabre with this same type blade making this a longstanding option for the Swedes. ( Mine unfortunately is NOT damast. :(
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 9, 2015 2:34:04 GMT
Thanks for the clarification Dave. Never had a head for who was what and why not. Even after reading the wiki I got it wrong. Turn the page and ....poof! Edited Oscar. Where did you get the info on Wilhelm from?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Mar 9, 2015 11:15:08 GMT
Believe it or not Richard Bezdek's handy guide to German Sword Makers.
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Post by elsweddo on Mar 9, 2015 17:51:56 GMT
Thanks, nice reading, and brännvin is nice but i prefer bourbon. The blades says " King and motherland".
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Post by jimmythedonut on Mar 20, 2022 2:39:09 GMT
As I am a reviver of dead threads to such a degree that I may be known as a Necromancer by some I feel little shame in reviving this one as well. First off, that is a beautiful sword, reminds me of the Swiss m1867 dismounted officer's sword (IE the pipeback) albeit with a longer yelman. It's one of those weird combinations of "light overall weight but heavy point of balance" either balancing out the weapon to be a more effective cutter or completely messing it up by making it less nimble in the thrust, depending on who you ask. I am quite fond of those pipebacks and I'd really like to find an 82cm blade like yours, with my Swedish contact only having some <= 76cm versions instead. It's weird, I'd initially only gotten an 1893 because they were cheap and massive swords (albeit ones I find quite easy to use) but as time goes on I find myself over 50% of the way to owning ever major model of Swedish swords assuming they all arrive from Europe (which would be quite unfortunate as it would mean losing a good friend holding all of them for me, who, if he were always planning on betraying me, made the critical mistake of giving me his address but I digress) because I find them to be so fascinating and unique compared to everywhere else. But the other reason that I am writing is I have acquired a later version of this one. It has a 99cm OAL so I am thinking a roughly 82cm blade or maybe as low as 79cm, but still perfectly within the realm of standard infantry length. But it has a straight, narrow, single fuller with that semi-hollowground profile I have seen on other Swedish swords. Hilt is roughly the same, I am not sure what constitutes the difference as I have seen slightly different variations, maybe it was up to the officer's discretion or slight variations fell in and out of fashion? I am not sure. By my estimates, I would say that this serves as the missing link, for lack of a better term, between the pipeback m1859 proper, and the double fuller semi-functional m1899 infantry Officer's sword. I have one such example that will be written about if and when I can find the time to do a Swedish Invasion of all the swords of theirs I have (that don't already have write-ups). I find that one to be interesting too. I'd initially dismissed it as a dress-only sword as the foible is far too flexible. That being said, it is technically just as flexible as my standard 1889 artillery sabre (again, I will get to it when i get to it) albeit at about 2/3rds the blade width. Where the 1889 artillery sabre has become one of my favorite Swedish pieces with an amazing cut-and-thrust blade that seems to levitate in your hand, the m1899 seems to be heavy and forward weighted enough to make it useable in combat, but with a thin blade that is too narrow to cut and a foible that is too delicate to thrust. Or maybe I am just spoiled with better examples? It would work fine and mine does have service sharpening which implies it was at least somewhat intended for combat, maybe I just got one with a weak heat treatment? (1889 and 1899 respectively) I apologize for getting so off topic, but I look forward to possessing this one in a few months when hopefully all ~20 of my swords arrive from europe. Hopefully it is the stiff rigid thruster I am wanting it to be. Thanks!
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 20, 2022 11:04:20 GMT
For starters I would like to suggest this should be your avatar: But kidding aside, I am looking forward to your in dept review of all things Swedish sabre. You know your Swedish stuff far better than me it looks like. Thanks for bringing this one up again. Since I could not remember whether I did my usual polishing and conserving routine on this sabre I dug it out of the racks and lo an' behold, no polishing done whatsoever! Oh dear! Now I have to work on it! Good you brought it up again. It looks like there are more in the ,,Swedish'' rack that still have to be cleaned up and reviewed. My bad but Dang!. I thought I was nearly finished..... Nice sword by the way. Good find. Never seen that design before. Cheers.
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Post by pellius on Mar 20, 2022 13:30:38 GMT
I love it when these threads get a much-deserved bump.
I’m really looking forward to your articles, JtD.
Ah, to have a collection rack so comprehensive I can rediscover exotic sabers I completely forgot I owned.. Aspirational goals!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Mar 20, 2022 21:50:59 GMT
For starters I would like to suggest this should be your avatar: But kidding aside, I am looking forward to your in dept review of all things Swedish sabre. You know your Swedish stuff far better than me it looks like. Thanks for bringing this one up again. Since I could not remember whether I did my usual polishing and conserving routine on this sabre I dug it out of the racks and lo an' behold, no polishing done whatsoever! Oh dear! Now I have to work on it! Good you brought it up again. It looks like there are more in the ,,Swedish'' rack that still have to be cleaned up and reviewed. My bad but Dang!. I thought I was nearly finished..... Nice sword by the way. Good find. Never seen that design before. Cheers. Thanks for the kind words Uhlan! So far my Swedish collection (assuming everything eventually migrates to me) is: 2 Swedish M1893 troopers (need to sell 1 and use the scabbard for an officers) 1 Swedish M1893 Officers sans scabbard 1 Swedish spadroon (and will likely buy another one with a nicer blade) 2 Swedish 1889 artillery sabres, 1 standard, 1 with a very long and almost Toledo shaped blade 1 Swedish 1899 Infantry Officer's sword 1 Swedish m1867 troopers cavalry sword 1 Swedish m1864 cavalry sword 1 in very bad condition 1825 cavalry sabre 1 m1831 mounted artillery sabre I almost have half a mind to sue this website for making me spend so much money on swords but let's be honest, I am living the life the 4-year old version of me could only dream of right now (minus the dinosaurs and suits of armor) and I have 0 regrets, especially with inflation going the way it is, solid wealth is not the worst idea lol. Thanks!
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Post by eastman on Mar 21, 2022 1:18:22 GMT
there are people who would gladly sell you suits of armor (dinosaurs not included)
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 21, 2022 11:11:01 GMT
I have a Swedish Infantry Officers spadroon too. No.6 in this thread: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61228/8-spadroonsThese spadroons have a really interesting story and stand out from the crowd with those grated shells. Very well made. And I see you used poor old Vincent as avatar. Looks really cool! Cheers.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Apr 8, 2022 18:51:07 GMT
Well curse my impulses and stubbornness, I just got the pipeback model as well, cost me significantly more than yours, about 1000 euros at auction (I think me and bidder # [REDACTED] were the only ones who knew what it really was). Saying that out loud, 1000 euros is like the solid middle range of antique sabres but for some reason feels more than it is maybe because I am used to sniping cheap swords. But it is damascus and that commands a premium and I can confidently say I still think I came out on top.
But I digress, it is almost identical, same maker, gilding is mostly gone, no cypher on the grip, scabbard is much brighter. Did you ever do anything to bring the etching out? I am considering trying to polish it up carefully and then re-etching it with some mild acidic, then doing a final once over with some 3-in-1 and 0000 steel wool to get that almost laminate looking reflection a nicely polished damascus blade can have. Or something similar. I am just talking out my butt at this point but I'd really like to have this as one of my showcase pieces, maybe even have the blade re-gilted after re-etching? I fully accept that the etching will probably remove the faint remnants but it's a trade-off in my opinion as a full length damascus pattern outweighs little corners of gold. Won't redye the grip, it's a personal quirk but I prefer that faded gray look anyways.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 9, 2022 9:19:22 GMT
Congratulations! As yours is from the same maker, do you have the maker label inlaid in the spine too? Just looked at mine and the damast pattern is not faded that much I think. Problem I see is that we may be expecting too much as we are conditioned by pictures of those China Katana with pattern welded blades and/or luxury class knife blades. Have no idea really how visible the damast pattern was meant to be on these Swedish blades in the first place. Solingen made Prussian Officer damast blades came in lots of patterns, some very laid back and quite bright, some in your face and very dark: www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/Eickhorn/inhalt.htmlScroll down and see. I recommend downloading the entire catalogue anyway. Helped me out more than once. So, before I start throwing acid on the poor thing, I will try to find a corresponding pattern to find out what's what. Here are some patterns from the catalogue: The etching should not have an impact on the remaining gild. Gold is impervious to acid. It's the polishing that is the culprid. I will try and use cotton swabs with Mothers and/or Commandant No4 around the gild first and polish the rest as needed. Could also cover the gild with nail polish before the etch, just to be sure. Had good results with a little flat wood block covered with cloth and Mothers. The flat block will ensure the polishing will only be done on the high portions. The gild lays deeper. See: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/54377/bavarian-landwehr-officers-sabreNew gilding will be a hassle. I would try brush plating anyway as one does not have to take down the sabre. There are lots of DIY brush gold plating videos on Youtube. Solutions used can be quite expensive, but could be ideal for touching up. There are also gold variants of the famous Holland Hallmark silver polish around on Ebay. Never tried those. HH contains sterling silver and adds silver while polishing instead of taking silver off. Works like a charm on anything containing copper too. Turns cheap bronze Roman coins into expensive Roman silver coins. (Tourists beware!) When he found out about this wonder of Western chemical enterprise, my Syrian antiquities dealer was busy for days enthusiastically turning bronze coin into silver. Never seen him so happy! But before I can start with this Swede I have to finish a, what I think may be, Austrian Hussar sabre and there is this French Superior Officer Chasseur de Vincennes sword that came in a couple of weeks ago waiting too. And me with my daft head spending a week of spare time with chasing the latest super wide gaming monitors. The gaming universe is just as addictive as sabres!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Apr 9, 2022 15:31:43 GMT
Congratulations! As yours is from the same maker, do you have the maker label inlaid in the spine too? Just looked at mine and the damast pattern is not faded that much I think. Problem I see is that we may be expecting too much as we are conditioned by pictures of those China Katana with pattern welded blades and/or luxury class knife blades. Have no idea really how visible the damast pattern was meant to be on these Swedish blades in the first place. Solingen made Prussian Officer damast blades came in lots of patterns, some very laid back and quite bright, some in your face and very dark: www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/Eickhorn/inhalt.htmlScroll down and see. I recommend downloading the entire catalogue anyway. Helped me out more than once. So, before I start throwing acid on the poor thing, I will try to find a corresponding pattern to find out what's what. Here are some patterns from the catalogue: The etching should not have an impact on the remaining gild. Gold is impervious to acid. It's the polishing that is the culprid. I will try and use cotton swabs with Mothers and/or Commandant No4 around the gild first and polish the rest as needed. Could also cover the gild with nail polish before the etch, just to be sure. Had good results with a little flat wood block covered with cloth and Mothers. The flat block will ensure the polishing will only be done on the high portions. The gild lays deeper. See: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/54377/bavarian-landwehr-officers-sabreNew gilding will be a hassle. I would try brush plating anyway as one does not have to take down the sabre. There are lots of DIY brush gold plating videos on Youtube. Solutions used can be quite expensive, but could be ideal for touching up. There are also gold variants of the famous Holland Hallmark silver polish around on Ebay. Never tried those. HH contains sterling silver and adds silver while polishing instead of taking silver off. Works like a charm on anything containing copper too. Turns cheap bronze Roman coins into expensive Roman silver coins. (Tourists beware!) When he found out about this wonder of Western chemical enterprise, my Syrian antiquities dealer was busy for days enthusiastically turning bronze coin into silver. Never seen him so happy! But before I can start with this Swede I have to finish a, what I think may be, Austrian Hussar sabre and there is this French Superior Officer Chasseur de Vincennes sword that came in a couple of weeks ago waiting too. And me with my daft head spending a week of spare time with chasing the latest super wide gaming monitors. The gaming universe is just as addictive as sabres! It is indeed the same maker! Per another thread, sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61938/schmolz-solingen-manufacturer, I think mine was made between 1859 and 1861 before the name was changed. I concur that the pattern is not very visible which I almost think is a shame as I am now to some extent torn between keeping it basically invisible and proper or bringing out what is the star feature but losing out on the accuracy argument. It is a moot point for the time being as it again will go to my friend in Europe before being sent to me so I have some months before I receive all 24 or so swords I got for various good deals. It is far and away the most expensive antique sword I own, at about 1200 euros after fees. The next most expensive is a very nice 1821/96 Universal Cavalry sword I just got issued to John H Hayes of the 3rd Dragoon Guards who later transferred to the 14th Welch Battalion and served with honor in WWI at 1100 USD, then a Swiss 1817/30 at about 900 euros, and an 1867 Swiss for 700. So I've not really gotten very many HIGH END pieces but I prefer for my collection to be of the fighting men and officers swords. Trying to re-home some court swords in fact, they are simply out of place in my slowly budding collection. The past 2 weeks was somewhat of a "screw it, I am about to turn 30 and I need to stop buying swords so let's have one last moment of glory" run where I acquired 8 more swords in total, but once I finish clearing the payment on a 1796 Infantry Spadroon I got for 340 Euros (not a steal but a fair price just for collecting's sake, blade isnt great but the hilt almost looks re-gilded or just highly polished), I plan on deleting a few of my accounts with auction sites. I've gone from ~4 or 5 antique swords to damn near 70 in about the past year, I've waited my entire damn life to get into collecting and I'm damn proud of the steals, snipes, deals, and general tenacity I have had to get to where I am but I recognize I can't overextend my supply lines metaphorically speaking and it is time to consolidate my holdings (and spend lots of time cleaning some of the auction deals when they arrive) and generally prepare for the "next stage" of what I want to do with my collection now that I have more than established a nice base of power to go from. Thanks for the tips on the etching and cleaning, I really am interested in maybe not tackily refurbishing this one, but maybe replating the hilt and gilding it again after bringing out the etch and restoring the blade, I've seen so few examples of this one, and maybe 4-5 "damascus" ones online, none of which look to be in that great a condition. The auction photos are FAR too large to really insert properly unfortunately (God bless Auctionet for how hi-rez their photos are though) so here is a link to the gallery for the specific sword I have won, it looks like especially around the writing on the blade you can see a lot of figure-ment (is that even a term?) in the pattern so I am not sure what sort of overall pattern the sword would have but here is the link: auctionet.com/en/2174045-sabel-m-1859-svensk/imagesThanks!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 9, 2022 17:31:43 GMT
Thanks for the link to the Schmolz post. Missed that one. I have added it to the notes. Yes, it looks like that both sabres are from before the name change. I do not see residue of a heavy dark grey etch in the scrolls on either blade, the one place where remains still should be obvious. Thus far the evidence points to a bright blade with a subdued damast pattern. I would like to recommend you start cleaning in the scrolls and such with a cotton tip and some acetone first to get the crud out. Then do a small test with Mothers or Commandant No4 and again a cotton swab to see what happens. But be careful not to touch the remaining gild. All those scrolls are an ideal nesting place for crud to settle into. Think the rest of the blade will be a doddle. Hope you will show us the results in due time.
Cheers.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Apr 9, 2022 20:34:21 GMT
Thanks for the link to the Schmolz post. Missed that one. I have added it to the notes. Yes, it looks like that both sabres are from before the name change. I do not see residue of a heavy dark grey etch in the scrolls on either blade, the one place where remains still should be obvious. Thus far the evidence points to a bright blade with a subdued damast pattern. I would like to recommend you start cleaning in the scrolls and such with a cotton tip and some acetone first to get the crud out. Then do a small test with Mothers or Commandant No4 and again a cotton swab to see what happens. But be careful not to touch the remaining gild. All those scrolls are an ideal nesting place for crud to settle into. Think the rest of the blade will be a doddle. Hope you will show us the results in due time. Cheers. Glad to help, thanks for the reply! I have found another one from Proantic, listed as a Damask pattern but without the scroll indicating such to the best of my eyesight. It is interesting, the gilding is much stronger but the blade is darker (but still no etching visible). I am curious if this could indicate they were initially much darker with a stronger acid etching initially and the ignorant polished them too much, or if this is more unique, or if someone had it etched and then re-gilded, or even maybe this is just a patina on the blade? There's just few enough of these out there that it is a fun exercise to look at models and try to find some sort of commonality between them to approximate a general model. www.proantic.com/en/display.php?mode=obj&id=683503
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 10, 2022 7:20:13 GMT
The Proantique has the ,,Eisenhouwer'' scroll : But there is no ,,Damast'' scroll. The space between the gilded scroll and the guard is empty: This one is tricky. Not the sabre but the image: Down the blade towards the tip it looks bright. The part where the scrolling sits is darker, but the highlights are again very bright. I cannot really see a damast pattern in the darker area, which should be more obvious if the dark grey was indeed etched, so my conclusion is that they drew back the lighting on the upper portion of the blade so the gild comes out better. I cannot see anything indicating a grey etch nor a stronger damast pattern in the grey area. As the ,,Damast'' label is absent, I would advise prospective buyers to sternly request proof the blade was pattern welded at all. I have my doubts. Also must say that the percentage of ,,problem'' dealers on this site is rather high compared to many others. My experience shows a 50 - 50 chance something is not how it should be in many a dealers blurb. Strange, as Proantique projects this rather upmarked image. But maybe I was just not very lucky. Also, 1300 euro for this Swede without scabbard, questionable pattern welded blade and absent silver grip cypher is rather too much. But as a study object it is ideal. The pictures that is. Now we know what the gild looked like. I think the gilding is original. It looks like it has a good skin. Edit. I forgot to mention that I have found this German recipe on how to do a pattern welded blade etch. I think it dates from the early 1900's. It mentions ,,Scheidewasser''. The definition of that one can be found, again in German, here: www.wortbedeutung.info/Scheidewasser/As I cannot find a way to upload this entire file, I just paste it in here: ,, Damascstahl: "Der sogenannte Damascstahl erfordert noch eine weitere Vorbereitung, wenn derselbe zu Klingen und der gleichen verarbeitet wird, die auf ihrer Oberfläche ein schönes Damascgewebe bilden sollen. Zu diesem Zwecke wird aus diesem Stahl die Klinge etwa noch einmal so semprini geschmiedet, als sie nach der Vollendung seyn soll. In dieselbe werden nun auf beiden Seiten, mittelst einer runden Feile, halbrunde Rinnen bis auf ein Drittel der Dicke des Blatts eingefeilt, so daß die Zwischenräume der einen Seite sich zwischen denjenigen der andern Seite befinden, und das Blatt auf seiner Kante eine schlangenförmige Form angenommen hat. Nun wird dasselbe glühend gemacht, auf einem Ambos gerade geschlagen und vollends der Klinge ihre Form gegeben. Der durch das Zusammenschweißen der mit Draht umwundenen Stahlblätter gebildete, und durch das Gerben verfeinerte Damascstahl, besteht aus lauter übereinander liegenden Blättern. Wenn also ein daraus geschmiedetes Stück nach der oben angegebenen Weise mit einer Feile über die Quere durchstrichen wird, so werden dadurch die Lagen der Blätter unterbrochen und bilden dadurch das Damascgewebe. Da man auf mannigfache Weise die Unterbrechung der Blätter bewirken kann, so läßt sich der Damasc auf verschiedene Weise herstellen. So kann man mit Punzen oder andern ähnlichen Instrumenten Vertiefungen oder Erhöhungen bilden , das Vorragende wieder wegfeilen, und hierauf das Blatt im glühenden Zustande wieder gleich hämmern u. s. w. The recipe: Wenn die Klinge, oder was der Gegenstand sonst ist, seine Vollendung erreicht hat, so muß dieselbe geätzt werden, um den Damasc hervorzubringen. Hierzu bedient man sich entweder einer Beitze aus 1 Theil Scheidewasser und 20 Theilen Essig gemischt, in welche man den von aller Fettigkeit befreiten Gegenstand 15 — 20 Minuten lang legt — je nachdem man den Damasc schwächer oder stärker haben will — dann herausnimmt, in Wasser abspült und abtrocknet, ohne die Klinge stark zu reiben, weil gerade das matte Grau, das dieselbe durch das Blitzen annimmt, am besten den Damasc heraushebt; oder man nimmt einen an ein Holzstäbchcn gebundenen Schwamm, taucht solchen in Scheidewasser, und reibt damit den Gegenstand so lange, bis der Damasc zum Vorschein kommt, worauf man denselben ein paar Minuten lang mit einer dünnen Lage dieser Säure bedeckt stehen läßt, damit die Oberfläche grau wird, und dann abspült und trocknet." => Quelle: Kunst- und Gewerbe- Blatt, Band 14 Copy and paste the above in Google Translate and you are done. As far as actually doing this: I see that on the blade I have there are low and high areas. The highs are a kind of veins. I think that to get the best out of an etch one could polish to bright the high portions, the veins, to bring out the darker, lower areas better. More contrast this way. Can be done, I think, with a small flat wood block tightly covered in cloth with some Mothers on it. The high ,,veins'' will pick up the Mothers while the lower areas will not be touched. Some Mothers will settle there, but that will be all. After the polish it is just a matter of cleaning it out with a wet cloth. Do not use WD40 or whatever it's called, as this eats the grey away again. Stuff can be nasty sometimes. After a good clean just apply Ren Wax.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Apr 13, 2022 7:03:32 GMT
The Proantique has the ,,Eisenhouwer'' scroll : But there is no ,,Damast'' scroll. The space between the gilded scroll and the guard is empty: This one is tricky. Not the sabre but the image: Down the blade towards the tip it looks bright. The part where the scrolling sits is darker, but the highlights are again very bright. I cannot really see a damast pattern in the darker area, which should be more obvious if the dark grey was indeed etched, so my conclusion is that they drew back the lighting on the upper portion of the blade so the gild comes out better. I cannot see anything indicating a grey etch nor a stronger damast pattern in the grey area. As the ,,Damast'' label is absent, I would advise prospective buyers to sternly request proof the blade was pattern welded at all. I have my doubts. Also must say that the percentage of ,,problem'' dealers on this site is rather high compared to many others. My experience shows a 50 - 50 chance something is not how it should be in many a dealers blurb. Strange, as Proantique projects this rather upmarked image. But maybe I was just not very lucky. Also, 1300 euro for this Swede without scabbard, questionable pattern welded blade and absent silver grip cypher is rather too much. But as a study object it is ideal. The pictures that is. Now we know what the gild looked like. I think the gilding is original. It looks like it has a good skin. Edit. I forgot to mention that I have found this German recipe on how to do a pattern welded blade etch. I think it dates from the early 1900's. It mentions ,,Scheidewasser''. The definition of that one can be found, again in German, here: www.wortbedeutung.info/Scheidewasser/As I cannot find a way to upload this entire file, I just paste it in here: ,, Damascstahl: "Der sogenannte Damascstahl erfordert noch eine weitere Vorbereitung, wenn derselbe zu Klingen und der gleichen verarbeitet wird, die auf ihrer Oberfläche ein schönes Damascgewebe bilden sollen. Zu diesem Zwecke wird aus diesem Stahl die Klinge etwa noch einmal so semprini geschmiedet, als sie nach der Vollendung seyn soll. In dieselbe werden nun auf beiden Seiten, mittelst einer runden Feile, halbrunde Rinnen bis auf ein Drittel der Dicke des Blatts eingefeilt, so daß die Zwischenräume der einen Seite sich zwischen denjenigen der andern Seite befinden, und das Blatt auf seiner Kante eine schlangenförmige Form angenommen hat. Nun wird dasselbe glühend gemacht, auf einem Ambos gerade geschlagen und vollends der Klinge ihre Form gegeben. Der durch das Zusammenschweißen der mit Draht umwundenen Stahlblätter gebildete, und durch das Gerben verfeinerte Damascstahl, besteht aus lauter übereinander liegenden Blättern. Wenn also ein daraus geschmiedetes Stück nach der oben angegebenen Weise mit einer Feile über die Quere durchstrichen wird, so werden dadurch die Lagen der Blätter unterbrochen und bilden dadurch das Damascgewebe. Da man auf mannigfache Weise die Unterbrechung der Blätter bewirken kann, so läßt sich der Damasc auf verschiedene Weise herstellen. So kann man mit Punzen oder andern ähnlichen Instrumenten Vertiefungen oder Erhöhungen bilden , das Vorragende wieder wegfeilen, und hierauf das Blatt im glühenden Zustande wieder gleich hämmern u. s. w. The recipe: Wenn die Klinge, oder was der Gegenstand sonst ist, seine Vollendung erreicht hat, so muß dieselbe geätzt werden, um den Damasc hervorzubringen. Hierzu bedient man sich entweder einer Beitze aus 1 Theil Scheidewasser und 20 Theilen Essig gemischt, in welche man den von aller Fettigkeit befreiten Gegenstand 15 — 20 Minuten lang legt — je nachdem man den Damasc schwächer oder stärker haben will — dann herausnimmt, in Wasser abspült und abtrocknet, ohne die Klinge stark zu reiben, weil gerade das matte Grau, das dieselbe durch das Blitzen annimmt, am besten den Damasc heraushebt; oder man nimmt einen an ein Holzstäbchcn gebundenen Schwamm, taucht solchen in Scheidewasser, und reibt damit den Gegenstand so lange, bis der Damasc zum Vorschein kommt, worauf man denselben ein paar Minuten lang mit einer dünnen Lage dieser Säure bedeckt stehen läßt, damit die Oberfläche grau wird, und dann abspült und trocknet." => Quelle: Kunst- und Gewerbe- Blatt, Band 14 Copy and paste the above in Google Translate and you are done. As far as actually doing this: I see that on the blade I have there are low and high areas. The highs are a kind of veins. I think that to get the best out of an etch one could polish to bright the high portions, the veins, to bring out the darker, lower areas better. More contrast this way. Can be done, I think, with a small flat wood block tightly covered in cloth with some Mothers on it. The high ,,veins'' will pick up the Mothers while the lower areas will not be touched. Some Mothers will settle there, but that will be all. After the polish it is just a matter of cleaning it out with a wet cloth. Do not use WD40 or whatever it's called, as this eats the grey away again. Stuff can be nasty sometimes. After a good clean just apply Ren Wax. I both am pleased to announce I have found another example and severely displeased because the temptation to drop another 1000+ euro bid on a sword will break me. But my god. Take a look at this one: auctionet.com/en/2183599-sabel-m-1859-for-officer-damasked-blade-fatherland-gold-colored-text-total-length-98-cmThe blade, IMO, looks slightly too narrow personally to be seriously considered for combat (though I personally always consider the thickness at spine vs the actual width as my .9"x7mm wide Hessian Infantry sabre is weirdly one of the best feeling swords I own), but I digress. It is simply gorgeous and if this is to be taken as proof of what they SHOULD have looked like, then we have more information. (THe other idea is this is in SUCH good condition because someone etched it using the more darker modern standards a la fantasy swords and had it re-gilded but I personally am not skilled enough to make a diagnoses there)
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Post by pellius on Apr 13, 2022 15:06:52 GMT
I both am pleased to announce I have found another example and severely displeased because the temptation to drop another 1000+ euro bid on a sword will break me. But my god. Take a look at this one… Jimmy, in my mind you are comfortably among the Uhlan / Dave / Pino echelon of collectors & contributors. Such a gorgeous example deserves a discerning caretaker such as yourself!
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Apr 13, 2022 21:19:35 GMT
That's a Degen. Blade is as narrow as the grip, so not for fighting. Never new they came like that too. Looks V++ to me and not fiddled with. 100% original. Very nice. Whether the blade is actually any good is hard to tell of course, this is afterall a ceremonial (sorta small) sword, but as a specimen and for a reasonable price it's hard to beat. Bidding seems to be low at the moment, but that very last 5 minutes...... If you are going after it I cannot blame you but take the extra %%% in account. 27% ? + shipping! Whatever happens...thanks for the link. They have taken care to show excellent images and I downloaded them all. What I would call a ,,cast iron grey'' blade etch. Nitric acid etches very fast. Turns steel black in a moment. Think the vinagre is there to slow the process somewhat. This could be a quite interesting project. Touching up the gild is another matter though.
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