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Post by William Swiger on Jan 8, 2015 7:07:25 GMT
Let's keep this thread civil, informative and on topic. Member in-fighting and vendor bashing will get it locked.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2015 7:53:14 GMT
I don't mean to say that a weld cannot be seen as a warning sign or that welds should be accepted point blank, I'm just saying that simply because there is a weld is not need to go screaming. each weld should be taken on its own merits and considered good or bad that way.
Junon, this sort of tang is not wide enough to have a mekugi work right. you'd be just as likely to make a weak point and have the tang fail through the middle of your mekugi ana.
there are multiple ways a thing like this could be fixed safely.
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Post by junon on Jan 8, 2015 8:31:25 GMT
Junon, this sort of tang is not wide enough to have a mekugi work right. you'd be just as likely to make a weak point and have the tang fail through the middle of your mekugi ana. there are multiple ways a thing like this could be fixed safely. thanks Tom... I have no doubt about your knowledge in this matter - so I do think you are right. However I have jian (and I have seen jian - from sinosword, etc) that have rivet/mekugi on it... Do you think that mekugi also makes it weaker than without? I would assume the tang wideness of a jian would be comparable to euro style sword. Make me start wondering about my jian tang construction now...
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2015 8:59:07 GMT
well, I can't tell you much about jian. more importantly, I can't tell you much about how the sword you are talking about was designed. obviously when you drill or cut or punch a hole through the middle of something you are weakening it to some degree the question is "how much". Katana have rather wide tangs both to accommodate pinning with mekugi without being weakened to the point of failure or danger of failure under normal conditions and to counter balance the sword. yes, the nakago works like the pommel in a European sword but let's not go there just yet.
it is entirely possible the tang of your jian was designed to handle having a hole in it no problem. or it may be a failure waiting to happen. I can't tell you without seeing it and maybe not even then. inspect it if you can, and decide how you feel about it.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jan 8, 2015 9:26:48 GMT
Another option did occur to me, namely that I could have the threaded section welded back on. I might lose a little length deepening the slot for the rod to fit in, but not nearly 1.5". My old man is back in town tomorrow and he's a better welder (and thread-cutter for that matter) than I am, so I'll ask his opinion. Rather than use the existing rod you need a more compatible steel then have it welded, for Chris - while the concept of a slotted tang is the ideal, the execution needs work, the two steels need to be more compatible while the slot to tang needs to be MIG or TIG welded and tested
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 8, 2015 9:47:47 GMT
However I have jian (and I have seen jian - from sinosword, etc) that have rivet/mekugi on it... Do you think that mekugi also makes it weaker than without? I would assume the tang wideness of a jian would be comparable to euro style sword. Make me start wondering about my jian tang construction now... well, I can't tell you much about jian. more importantly, I can't tell you much about how the sword you are talking about was designed. obviously when you drill or cut or punch a hole through the middle of something you are weakening it to some degree the question is "how much". [...] it is entirely possible the tang of your jian was designed to handle having a hole in it no problem. or it may be a failure waiting to happen. I can't tell you without seeing it and maybe not even then. inspect it if you can, and decide how you feel about it. For some examples of modern jian tangs with rivet holes: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/33040/Yes, they're weakened by the holes. Less of a problem for old jian, since the tangs are less likely to be too thin, and holes are likely to be drifted rather than drilled.
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Post by MOK on Jan 8, 2015 11:11:09 GMT
For an example of how to do a welded tang extension right: There are also some closer photos in this review by Ninjadave89. Just to be clear, Ronin Katana do neither the welding nor inspecting the welds. They're not the manufacturer. All they can really do here is be very cross with whoever actually makes the swords and tell them to make certain changes in the production: more compatible steels, preferably longer slots, better fit between the pieces before welding (grinding the threads off the area that makes contact with the tang would help), deeper welds, and certainly closer inspection of the welds - this one looks like it shouldn't have passed even visual inspection, let alone anything else the manufacturer hopefully does (see here for a lengthy but quite informative explanation of industrial scale methods). And it looks like at least one of their welders quite simply needs more training... There's only so much a retailer can do, quality control wise. Lemons will happen and some of them will slip through, especially with brand new product lines like this. What's important here is communication, so the flaws can be caught and fixed early.
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Post by MOK on Jan 8, 2015 11:16:18 GMT
I am honestly stunned that the threaded portion broke on a water bottle since that part of the tang shouldn't be taking enough stress to break it, even if it's a weld. The end of the tang is a good way beyond the primary vibrational node and actually receives quite a shock on impact. It's one of the more common break points even on one piece blades, right after the shoulders AFAIK.
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Jan 8, 2015 12:32:05 GMT
I also got this particular model. Unfortunately, I have not yet had the time for a review (life has been hectic these past few weeks). Most of what Draven said in this review I agree with, except maybe a little about the belt. It is way too small for an adult sized human of nearly any proportion!
I did some cutting and flubbed more than a few swings, including hitting my stand rather hard...more than once...I am really out of practice, but I had no issues with the weld holding together.
I will try to get my review up soon, although it won't be much different than Draven's.
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Post by RicWilly on Jan 8, 2015 12:46:17 GMT
I notice on the Lutel example the weld is further down the rod from the threads than on Draven's sword. I wonder if that has something to do with making more solid?
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Post by MOK on Jan 8, 2015 13:06:31 GMT
I notice on the Lutel example the weld is further down the rod from the threads than on Draven's sword. I wonder if that has something to do with making more solid? Almost certainly. Since the threads prevent the actual bulk of the rod from fitting firmly against the tang before welding, it's very easy for the weld to only "catch" on the very tops of the threads, i.e. almost not at all, which is what seems to have happened here. That's why I suggested grinding the threads off on that end of the rod (or they could use solid round stock and only cut threads on the end that goes in the pommel, like Lutel does; I have no idea which would be more expensive in this case, but either way should be structurally sound).
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Jan 8, 2015 13:35:51 GMT
For sure, seek a replacement at least. I've never gotten the impression that Ronin was about not honoring their customers. If this broke like it did for the reasons you said it did then I can't see them not providing a replacement. I feel like you shouldn't have to fix it yourself, if you know what I mean. Also, if you do something yourself then any warrant action you are entitled to is void. I say give them the chance to rectify the situation. Please report back on how they handle it, though. Ronin has always been outstanding as far as customer service goes, and hopefully that continues. Your kidding? I got a dojo pro with a scrappy saya and a blade that chips on water bottles and they didn't want to know. No, he's not kidding. My experiences with RK have all been positive as well. Their reputation for customer service is stellar. Ronin saya are also notorious for being a little messy on the inside for whatever reason, but a blade that chips on water bottles is a rarity to say the least. back on topic,... I'd also like to see you do an exchange, even if only to see what the next weld in line looks like. This one was more than a little sketchy right off the bat, but it COULD be a singularity. I'm with findlithui in thinking that a solid threaded tang would make this much more attractive, especially in light of such a horrid failure. I'm sure RK will take the feedback, make things right with you, and make some sort of improvement. With that said, I'll thank you for taking one for the team as well. Without someone like yourself willing to take the plunge, it would be a long time before we got any sort of real world info on this line. As much as we all hate problems,......they are the first step toward improvement. With that said, I'll be holding off to see what direction RK takes in resolution of this issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 13:47:47 GMT
Sorry to say so...but thats what i expected after seeing that first weld picture. Figures..."honi soit qui mal y pense"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 13:53:49 GMT
Never understood the Ronin hype anyway...my type 13 dojo pro showed a cracked saya mouth, very loose mekugi, loose fitting of the blade in the saya, and very uneven tsuka-ito diamonds...i guess the blade is good at least and the price is OK, but hey...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 13:59:42 GMT
Neo_one you need to cool your jets. Draven got a lemon from a brand new sword line and the first run of Euro's from RK. Ya it sucks for him, but as he said RK has been very willing to replace it and cover the shipping charges, plus he was happy with every other aspect of the sword. It's a $250 sword that comes with a scabbard and suspension system, what are you really expecting? A bad weld slips through, they apologize and offer to replace it. Yet the first thing you want to do is raise hell? Do you really think Chris at RK is going to ensure Draven gets a solid sword simply because of this review? He already left this forum because of "vendor bashing" if I recall correctly, also stating that these reviews don't really affect his overall sale. Perhaps as others have said, we wait until Draven gets his new blade and updates us before we pass judgement. Draven im sorry you got a lemon, I hope your replacement is a solid blade as everything else about this package looks great. Thank you for doing a thorough and honest review and please keep us informed. I need to cool my jets? Because of a review from a buyer that Ronin Katana has delivered a poor product? If this was another eBay company they would get slaughtered without mercy. So don't tell me because it's RK that we should be soft on them. That's fanboyism at it's best. I've handled numerous dojo pros and all were very poor quality. So the issues can't be pointed at the stores that sell there products, rather it would be the suppliers themselves sending swords not up to scratch. So tell me, how does a new line of swords from them now manage to fall apart on a plastic water bottle?? If you had this issue and it seriously injured someone would you be so forgiving? Holy heavens, i am not alone in here...thank goodness!!! I am SO on yours...but be advised: Dont go to hard on RK here...lets see how they handle it.
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Post by Alex.Moranz on Jan 8, 2015 15:48:25 GMT
Neo_one you need to cool your jets. Draven got a lemon from a brand new sword line and the first run of Euro's from RK. Ya it sucks for him, but as he said RK has been very willing to replace it and cover the shipping charges, plus he was happy with every other aspect of the sword. It's a $250 sword that comes with a scabbard and suspension system, what are you really expecting? A bad weld slips through, they apologize and offer to replace it. Yet the first thing you want to do is raise hell? Do you really think Chris at RK is going to ensure Draven gets a solid sword simply because of this review? He already left this forum because of "vendor bashing" if I recall correctly, also stating that these reviews don't really affect his overall sale. Perhaps as others have said, we wait until Draven gets his new blade and updates us before we pass judgement. Draven im sorry you got a lemon, I hope your replacement is a solid blade as everything else about this package looks great. Thank you for doing a thorough and honest review and please keep us informed. I need to cool my jets? Because of a review from a buyer that Ronin Katana has delivered a poor product? If this was another eBay company they would get slaughtered without mercy. So don't tell me because it's RK that we should be soft on them. That's fanboyism at it's best. I've handled numerous dojo pros and all were very poor quality. So the issues can't be pointed at the stores that sell there products, rather it would be the suppliers themselves sending swords not up to scratch. So tell me, how does a new line of swords from them now manage to fall apart on a plastic water bottle?? If you had this issue and it seriously injured someone would you be so forgiving? Yes you do. Did you not read my entire post or were you "triggered" by my first line? If it was another eBay company that offered the same product and same warranty my stance would still be the same. They sent out a faulty blade and offered to replace it. They would not be "slaughtered without mercy" as most members here are excited about new swords and manufacturers on the market and would like to give them a chance to offer a good product. The fanboyism, really? That is a cheap insult, and hastily thrown in anger I assume. I prefer euro blades over japanese and as such do not own any. I have had no dealing with RK or any of their products and have no desire to own any of their new euro's as well. Feel free to look through my past posts to see where my interests lie. I, like many others here, prefer to spend my money on higher end blades. Now on to the next part of your post. This is exactly why I told you to pump the brakes. As soon as a fault is found with this blade you jumped in and began saying that you've never liked their products and that they didn't take care of you. Vendor bashing. Soon other people will start coming out of the woodworks and begin spouting off about how they dislike the same company, then the thread is locked. It is a shame because we at SBG have lost many knowledgable people because of this. Look at MyArmoury, many esteemed sword makers comment their frequently giving insight to the members on how they create the swords we love. Yet they avoid us because of this childish behavior. Is this the only reason why they avoid SBG? I doubt it, but that is for the more knowledgable members to answer, not me. How did this sword manage to fall apart on a water bottle? Clearly because the threads were only welded to the tang, and poorly at that. But Draven already went over that and provided pictures. Now to your last line. Would I react differently if it was me and I hurt somebody with this. Well lets take a step back here and realize one thing. This is a weapon, designed to kill people. That is it. Sure we collect them and enjoy swinging them around at water bottles and such, but a weapon they remain. Yes I would be upset if I hurt somebody because my new sword failed at the tang, but some of the fault would also lie with me for having people that close when I had already inspected the sword and saw the welded portion. Again, a weapon, not a toy. We take on the responsibility of the safety for others when we pick up these weapons, same way we do when we hold a firearm. Again, thank you Draven, I truly appreciate the detailed review and updates. Moderators if you feel this post is to direct, please delete it and do not lock this thread. Also if I am off base with something I said please correct me on it as I only know what I have seen. Neo_one if you feel the need to discuss this further, please send me a PM and we can go from there.
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Post by Bryan Heff on Jan 8, 2015 16:39:55 GMT
I think this is a very valuable thread and excellent discussion thus far. ALL, lets please keep it civil and respectful. If you have a beef with another poster, take it up in a PM but please keep it civil.
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ChrisA
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Post by ChrisA on Jan 8, 2015 17:12:18 GMT
Chris? Before cutting again.... could you just maybe do a visual inspection on your weld area? Just for a little added safety . I know - I worry too much. I was thinking the same thing . Although, to be honest, I checked the tang for the first time AFTER I cut, so I'm not sure I would see anything out of the ordinary.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jan 8, 2015 17:54:26 GMT
To be fair, that concern with "helicopter of death" is pretty valid and even if random people were to be say 50 feet away and the blade tang snapped at the welded spot and blade flew off, it would be mighty fast and hit hard enough to hurt and kill. You can only account for your end which is making sure the cutting area is safe but the other half is the vendor providing a safe trustworthy product of reliable design. Most businesses have quality built into the design BEFOREHAND because it saves on cost and loss of brand name/other intangible and tangibles on the back end/after sales. Having customer service is nice and all, but quality must be engineered and designed into the product as it is produced, do it right the first time so you don't have to deal with crap like this. With regards to firearms, yeah it is absolutely paramount that the shooter be absolutely mindful of gun safety and where he/she points that barrel and keeping that trigger finger under control. But again, that's user end and the things you can control, the things beyond your control is when the brand name company sells you a gun with a thin but cracked firing chamber that pops after a round is chambered and the hammer/pin strikes the primer. Or maybe the slide rails were not properly molded with the polymer frame because of the way it was design to fit & bond with the polymer mold or the heat treatment/cutting of the rails into the steel gun frame weren't done properly because the procedure was riddled with potential mistakes and could only survive 5 rounds, maybe they tested only 1 shot at the factory range... maybe 4 rounds, and when the customer fires that dreaded 5th round- BOOOM. But then again, the gun industry is so big and lawsuit potential is extremely high so any risk associated with keeping costs down is very dangerous. If the forge making the Hanwei Tinker line can sell bare blades for $90 solid 1 piece, and sell whole swords for $200-$300 with solid 1 piece steel blades, I'm sure Ronin Katana could too. Welds may or may not be properly done... but having a deep notch cut into the tang for a rod to be welded in securely seems like a lot of work for something in the $250 price point, more than the work that goes into a Hanwei bare blade. Consider also that RK is a middleman relying on a supplier, they are concerned about their margin's too and I understand that- just go for 1 piece blade, even a non heat treated solid tang should survive fights with a mere water bottle. I learned something new from this forum everyday, so the threaded tang can take a lot of force from vibrations, that doesn't make me feel any better knowing that fights with a water bottle would result in too much stress and lead to broken threaded tang weld.
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Post by Draven on Jan 8, 2015 18:33:07 GMT
As the mods say folks, try and keep this on point and civil; I started this thread as a review based on my experiences and that is all. Chris at RK offered me a replacement literally 10 minutes after i sent the first e-mail to him, and when asked about shipping info he said he would refund the shipping. He has been nothing but helpful in this issue and I sent him a bunch of high resolution pictures of the failure so that he and the shop that made the swords can see them even if I don't send it back.
This should NOT be a thread to bash anyone, be they user or vendor. This is the first run of a sword line and bad things happen - most of RK's swords don't require this type of assembly, it's new to them and again, bad things happen. Let's keep this informative and the discussion scholarly.
I'm not mad about it and I bear RK no ill will and this thread does not exist to turn people away from RK. I've heard tons of great things about their swords and customer service, I've seen the destruction testing they do and ChrisA chimed in saying that he had done some cutting and his new Euro sword was fine thus far. I've seen a few failures in solid-tanged H/T swords which are widely accepted to be quality and durable (by myself as well), so let's not jump the gun here.
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