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Post by Draven on Jan 8, 2015 1:11:03 GMT
Neo_One, there is of course nothing to prove that they won't do that - but even if this review had been flawless from start to finish it still wouldn't prove anything. This is a very new line, it is by nature of that unproven and it's teething. I'm not mad at RK, it happens - this is the first time I've ever had to return a sword, so it's about my turn anyway. RK's Euro line will prove itself good or bad with time. I'm hoping that if this problem is with more than just my sword that they improve the design (namely, one piece tangs) rather than abandon Euro swords altogether.
PS: RK also said they would refund shipping, so it should be a no-cost exchange.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 8, 2015 1:13:47 GMT
I'm not being funny but how do you know when you get a replacement that they just won't put some extra TLC into it to ensure you won't get another poor excuse for a sword? Just because your replacement will be okay, how about the other 200+ swords arnt? That's a really good point. However, I don't think it's right to flush the whole line based on one sword that broke without giving the manufaturer a chance to prove its product is sound. Hopefully we'll start seeing some more buyers examples, and hopefully they will see this thread so they know to look at the weld and document its condition prior to use. Also, if the design and execution is flawed, I hope that Ronin sees this and works to rectify the situation at the production level.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jan 8, 2015 1:14:02 GMT
And the weld broke. As far as I can tell, the threaded section was set into a slot on the tang and supposed to be welded in place. In actuality, it appears that the steel from the welding rod adhered only to the threaded portion, holding it in place relatively firmly but with no actual welding of the two pieces. Note, this was NOT through abuse. This was my first hit on a single cheap walmart water bottle. I haven't decided yet how to deal with this. Honestly I'm not sure if I want to return it for an exchange purely because I don't think that I'd trust another weld at this point. I will, either way, be letting RK know so they can get some QC at wherever these are being made. I am honestly stunned that the threaded portion broke on a water bottle since that part of the tang shouldn't be taking enough stress to break it, even if it's a weld. I like the price point and general look of the sword package since it is a nice looking alternative to the Hanwei Tinker Line but I disapprove of the use of welded construction when it comes to the threaded tang. The whole blade should one solid heat treated piece from blade tip to end of tang. RK should revamp the line and just make the whole blade 1 piece steel. Would be much safer and easier to ensure quality construction.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2015 2:02:14 GMT
Ok guys, let us all take a breath here. Yup sure does suck that the weld broke. I think the first generation of VA-ATrims had a welded on thread like this. I had one and beat the crap out of it and it took it all and smiled. It seems pretty likely that the same forge makes both lines and have their way of doing things that only change when the customer ( in this cas VA or Ronin) specifically asks to have it changed. Chris is offering a replacement and did so very promptly. We really can't ask much more than that from a vendor. Let us remember that Chris and Ronin is a vendor not a maker and let us not misplace responsibility.
as for fixing it, sure any number of options are possible. I think I could fix it without loss of any length but I recommend that you get it replaced. If the next one fails then we can look at fixing it.
Very disappointing for sure. Good luck with a resolution
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 2:02:39 GMT
Neo_One, there is of course nothing to prove that they won't do that - but even if this review had been flawless from start to finish it still wouldn't prove anything. This is a very new line, it is by nature of that unproven and it's teething. I'm not mad at RK, it happens - this is the first time I've ever had to return a sword, so it's about my turn anyway. RK's Euro line will prove itself good or bad with time. I'm hoping that if this problem is with more than just my sword that they improve the design (namely, one piece tangs) rather than abandon Euro swords altogether. PS: RK also said they would refund shipping, so it should be a no-cost exchange. I'm glad you are not to upset about this even though you have every right to be. It is however quite concerning to see such a poor construction being implemented on these swords. Regardless if they are a new line, RK have been in business several years now and should know better.
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Post by Draven on Jan 8, 2015 2:11:46 GMT
Ok guys, let us all take a breath here. Yup sure does suck that the weld broke. I think the first generation of VA-ATrims had a welded on thread like this. I had one and beat the crap out of it and it took it all and smiled. It seems pretty likely that the same forge makes both lines and have their way of doing things that only change when the customer ( in this cas VA or Ronin) specifically asks to have it changed. Chris is offering a replacement and did so very promptly. We really can't ask much more than that from a vendor. Let us remember that Chris and Ronin is a vendor not a maker and let us not misplace responsibility. as for fixing it, sure any number of options are possible. I think I could fix it without loss of any length but I recommend that you get it replaced. If the next one fails then we can look at fixing it. Very disappointing for sure. Good luck with a resolution Well said, I agree!
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 8, 2015 2:15:21 GMT
Sorry to hear about this but very glad nobody was hurt. Hopefully just an isolated incident.
-Josh
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Post by Anankai on Jan 8, 2015 2:46:26 GMT
Instead of copying Valiant Armoury's fittings, Ronin should have copied the way their tangs are made... No welding here...
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2015 2:46:36 GMT
Yeah, I hate seeing welds too. As an interesting aside in the high end knife community a weld like this is seen as the best way to go about it. When I asked a few of the top end makers why they thought that the response was that it is very difficult to grind a round part on the end of the tang that is the right size to cut threads on and if you do manage it it is very easy for the threads to not be cut deep enough making them have no holding power. So a very different perspective over there.
The problem isn't that there is a weld, the problem is that there is a BAD weld.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 8, 2015 3:33:43 GMT
Hi Draven. If your dad is good at cutting thread I suggest welding in some solid mild steel rod with thread cut ONLY where it needs to be for the nut. The rest can stay solid, especially at the weld, and thus stronger. Also I suggest cutting the dove tail a bit deeper and thus using a longer rod. Much more contact area for the weld then. After welding do not quench the weld area to cool it. Quenching will make the high carbon component harden and become brittle, and may even create cracks. Make sure he lets the weld just cool slowly and naturally (you'll have to catch him as most welders immediate action is to dunk the weld). And then after it has cooled, rub a section back to shiney with sand paper so you can temper the area of the weld for good measure in case of any martensite formation. Draw it past dark blue to a light silvery blue surface oxide (heat colour ~ 300-320C /600F), removing the piece from the flame frequently to monitor the colour changes (which only happen in oxygen, away from the flame). Again let it cool slowly. Dont let it get red hot or you'll have to start again. A stove top burner or propane torch will suffice for the tempering. [Actually it wont hurt you to heat to light blue right up to the shoulder for good measure. Tangs don't need to hold an edge and as such don't need to be as hard as a blade edge - softer is tougher] It's a case of the Devil you know when it comes to the return. At least you know with this blade one problem will be fixed. Where as a replacement blade is a wild card. I believe in taking matters into one's own hands (as y'all may have noticed). I don't trust any one. Not doctors (worse than used car salesmen; pushing their drugs and unnecessary surgery), mechanics,... even burger flippers can't even get your order right (put the cheese... on the bun...). Attachments:
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Post by LemuelTheLemur on Jan 8, 2015 3:36:43 GMT
Instead of copying Valiant Armoury's fittings, Ronin should have copied the way their tangs are made... No welding here... I'm not sure about that particular sword blade, but Sonny has mentioned to me that some of his blades have welded on threads. The difference is that he does the welds himself, and hasn't had any complaints regarding weld durability so far.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jan 8, 2015 3:41:01 GMT
Good grief -checks my VA swords- thankfully none of mines have welded threaded parts. I'll be sure to ask just in case for my next purchase.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2015 4:12:59 GMT
Guys, listen to Brendan, he does this for a living you know.
Just because you have a weld like this doesn't mean it is bad. If they did it like Brenno describes it will be fine.
The problem is a bad weld not having a weld
Seriously, no need for weld-phobia.
As an interesting aside, a lot of medieval swords to have survived to today were made with the whole or a large part of the tang and sometimes even the shoulders of the blade being wrought iron welded on to the blade. These swords were used in real combat and did not fail and are still together today (to some degree).
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Post by Alex.Moranz on Jan 8, 2015 5:25:41 GMT
Neo_one you need to cool your jets. Draven got a lemon from a brand new sword line and the first run of Euro's from RK. Ya it sucks for him, but as he said RK has been very willing to replace it and cover the shipping charges, plus he was happy with every other aspect of the sword. It's a $250 sword that comes with a scabbard and suspension system, what are you really expecting?
A bad weld slips through, they apologize and offer to replace it. Yet the first thing you want to do is raise hell? Do you really think Chris at RK is going to ensure Draven gets a solid sword simply because of this review? He already left this forum because of "vendor bashing" if I recall correctly, also stating that these reviews don't really affect his overall sale. Perhaps as others have said, we wait until Draven gets his new blade and updates us before we pass judgement.
Draven im sorry you got a lemon, I hope your replacement is a solid blade as everything else about this package looks great. Thank you for doing a thorough and honest review and please keep us informed.
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Post by Draven on Jan 8, 2015 5:30:48 GMT
Brendan, fantastic post. I hadn't considered cutting the slot deeper and using solid rod rather than threaded. I'm going to think and talk it over with my old man tomorrow and make a decision, but I think that sounds like the best one.
I know I keep flip flopping - I hate the idea of getting a replacement and being unable to enjoy it out of fear that the blade will come flying off. The fact that I'm already obsessing over it makes me think that's a distinct possibility, so it might work out better for me to just fix it up like Brendan said.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 8, 2015 5:45:25 GMT
Brendan, fantastic post. I hadn't considered cutting the slot deeper and using solid rod rather than threaded. I'm going to think and talk it over with my old man tomorrow and make a decision, but I think that sounds like the best one. I know I keep flip flopping - I hate the idea of getting a replacement and being unable to enjoy it out of fear that the blade will come flying off. The fact that I'm already obsessing over it makes me think that's a distinct possibility, so it might work out better for me to just fix it up like Brendan said. Just saying, don't let what other people want sway your decision. If you think it's best to keep it and do a solid repair yourself then that's absolutely the right decision. This line is just taking off, and there will be other reviews. It's not necessary for you to take one for the team, hahaha.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 8, 2015 5:51:09 GMT
Seriously, no need for weld-phobia. In cases where experts, or at the very least, those who really know what they're doing are the ones welding, there probably isn't much to worry about. I think it might not be totally unwarranted to have a "poor-weld-phobia" I can see where a solid one-piece construction could help eliminate one more possible weak point in certain situations and help some people rest easier. Or maybe they can hire Sonny to weld them -Josh
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jan 8, 2015 6:24:51 GMT
I just don't like welds and prefer single piece steel so I don't buy products with welded tangs. I'm aware that welds if done right are safe but I still have my preferences. Some people prefer 2 bamboo pegs in their katana, some prefer 1 bamboo peg, others prefer a brass and bamboo one... some folks prefer peen blocks on their pommels, others don't care or are fine with hex nut.
It's not just a matter of phobia, some folks like me just don't want their threaded tangs welded or think that welded tangs look lazy or bad such as the sword in this review.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 6:26:40 GMT
Neo_one you need to cool your jets. Draven got a lemon from a brand new sword line and the first run of Euro's from RK. Ya it sucks for him, but as he said RK has been very willing to replace it and cover the shipping charges, plus he was happy with every other aspect of the sword. It's a $250 sword that comes with a scabbard and suspension system, what are you really expecting? A bad weld slips through, they apologize and offer to replace it. Yet the first thing you want to do is raise hell? Do you really think Chris at RK is going to ensure Draven gets a solid sword simply because of this review? He already left this forum because of "vendor bashing" if I recall correctly, also stating that these reviews don't really affect his overall sale. Perhaps as others have said, we wait until Draven gets his new blade and updates us before we pass judgement. Draven im sorry you got a lemon, I hope your replacement is a solid blade as everything else about this package looks great. Thank you for doing a thorough and honest review and please keep us informed. I need to cool my jets? Because of a review from a buyer that Ronin Katana has delivered a poor product? If this was another eBay company they would get slaughtered without mercy. So don't tell me because it's RK that we should be soft on them. That's fanboyism at it's best. I've handled numerous dojo pros and all were very poor quality. So the issues can't be pointed at the stores that sell there products, rather it would be the suppliers themselves sending swords not up to scratch. So tell me, how does a new line of swords from them now manage to fall apart on a plastic water bottle?? If you had this issue and it seriously injured someone would you be so forgiving?
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Post by junon on Jan 8, 2015 6:46:52 GMT
would it stronger if we make a hole on the tang and put mekugi in it? assuming the weld failed again, the mekugi should be able to hold the sword from becoming helicopter of death?
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