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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 19:54:05 GMT
I was recently notified by Ryan they checked their inventory, and discovered they put the wrong blade on the sword. They stated they are currently out of Shihozume blades. They stated they will make a new blade and send it to me. I will keep everyone posted on the outcome. Digs.... had a similar promise at one point. BS excuse, but I'm glad that you will get your Shihozume katana eventually. I hope it's real Shihozume and not just sanmai.
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 19:58:08 GMT
Ya know... You aren't the first one to do this. There have been many before you, and surely many after you, that have bought many swords from all the eBay vendors (both laminated and not) and found them unsatisfactory. Why then, after all this bad news, do we still have people repeating these multiple buy tests? I don't understand it. It's already established that the laminated blades are not laminated. It's already knows that the quality is low. Why do people continue to do this? ******************************************************************************************************* I think it is simple Mikeeman. Once I finishing writing the comparison article, I will ask it be made a sticky. This way novices will see a sticky near the top which compares multiple Ebay vendors and get a feel for the lay of the land. There is an interesting mix of both favorable and unfavorable reviews peppered throughout the forum, which leaves most novices confused. Something concrete with detailed pictures and text will allow most novices to make an informed choice without hours of digging through old records, and trying to guess what their outcome is "likely" to be. Quite frankly, seller integrity is important to me. One who will acknowledge error and take steps to correct it gains points with me.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 20:06:47 GMT
Your article might be better if specific vendors are not mentioned. Who knows if these frauds do decide in the future to be honest sellers. I tried to create a thread on Laminated Blades - Real vs Fake but I haven't had the time to finish it and I think it needs to be done over again sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/42636/laminated-blades-real-fake
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 20:28:04 GMT
Your article might be better if specific vendors are not mentioned. Who knows if these frauds do decide in the future to be honest sellers. I tried to create a thread on Laminated Blades - Real vs Fake but I haven't had the time to finish it and I think it needs to be done over again sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/42636/laminated-blades-real-fakeNormally, I would strongly agree with you. But I found one vendor who got it entirely wrong, from the kashira (pommel) to the Kissaki (tip). I found one vendor (under specific conditions) got it more right than most. I learned really fast to specify things in a way which pulls a sword off the production line (such as hishigami) to ensure the Ito (handle wrap) was tight. I am afraid a article that says: "some of the vendors will make stuff that looks like *this*, and other vendors will do a better job that looks like *that*" may encourage people to roll the dice with the wrong vendor. I have found some vendors who try to slip things past, and others who have honored deals (even when they accidently mis-priced their products). I realize the tactics of a vendor can change over time (both good and bad), but sometimes all we can do is take a snapshot of the moment, as it is all we have.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 15, 2015 1:37:10 GMT
Ya know... You aren't the first one to do this. There have been many before you, and surely many after you, that have bought many swords from all the eBay vendors (both laminated and not) and found them unsatisfactory. Why then, after all this bad news, do we still have people repeating these multiple buy tests? I don't understand it. It's already established that the laminated blades are not laminated. It's already knows that the quality is low. Why do people continue to do this? ******************************************************************************************************* I think it is simple Mikeeman. Once I finishing writing the comparison article, I will ask it be made a sticky. This way novices will see a sticky near the top which compares multiple Ebay vendors and get a feel for the lay of the land. There is an interesting mix of both favorable and unfavorable reviews peppered throughout the forum, which leaves most novices confused. Something concrete with detailed pictures and text will allow most novices to make an informed choice without hours of digging through old records, and trying to guess what their outcome is "likely" to be. Quite frankly, seller integrity is important to me. One who will acknowledge error and take steps to correct it gains points with me.
Basically this. I've Googled this topic before in the past when I was still but a nooblet with swords and found nothing. I never ended up buying anything, but I still wish something like this was easily accessible. Even until just recently I didn't know other people did this. I think it would be pretty good to see something like this get a sticky and written in a way that makes it easy to find via a google search on eBay laminated blades.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 15, 2015 4:15:12 GMT
This is just my opinion but if this review were to be used as a conclusive test on laminated blades and as an example of what to and not to buy, it would have to be on a larger scale and include all of the brands available while also having a control. Basically a fully comprehensive and conclusive test that doesn't include any opinions, guesses or mistakes of any kind. Otherwise it's just going to be one more review that doesn't answer all the questions and might even create more questions than it answers. Blades need to be broken to see the interior for absolute certainty, steel type should be professionally confirmed and all companies must be named and all correspondence should also be recorded and divulged. If there are any mistakes, it could misrepresent and even harm a company's reputation and livelihood.
I'm all for finding out the truth but it needs to be done right.
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Aug 15, 2015 4:44:46 GMT
Cottontail, The purist in me agrees with you. But barring winning the lottery, most people would not have deep enough pockets to buy 30 swords to perform destructive testing on them. Just the third party metallurgical studies would be in the thousands of dollars. The good news is non-destructive testing has marched ahead and produces solid results. Magnaflux testing allows you to resolve internal structure without sawing a blade and etching it. You can see boundary zones between soft iron, medium steel and hard steel (such as shihozume cores). UV illumination to force the surface of the blade to fluoresce reveals things which are not visible to the naked eye (especially on polished or hazuya polished blades). In short, putting information in the hands of newbies, even if it is a limited set, is better than no information. However, as you pointed out, any review should err on the side of caution. Reputations are hard to build, and even harder to retain.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 15, 2015 6:51:33 GMT
I would be more trusting of the sellers' good intentions have I not had one directly admit to me that they had fake sanmai and was told to trust them that they would do other things correctly. I don't know if there is some kind of cultural gap going on here, but between the lies and blatant fakery, I wouldn't buy from an eBay seller if I could get what I wanted at a reasonable price elsewhere. To deal with them you have to know what to ask for. You also have to ask for pictures of the steps of things normally hidden. For instance if you order a certain file pattern on the nakago, ask to see pictures of the nakago and mention it is you don't see the file marks. In my experience, they will take short cuts if they think you won't notice but can do a suitable job if you check up on it. Is it inconvenient, stressful and a hassle? Sure is. Can you still be lied to? Yup. Basically you have to ask for things that they can't just take a stock photo of and send to you. Ask for realistic things (ie, don't expect to get a $6,000 custom tamahagane blade for $400). Unfortunately this means bad things for people who don't know what to look for in a sword. At the same time, the people who buy from them are normally buying for looks and marketing speech anyway (red blade folded full tang battle damascus katana with saya for choosing!) and would ask why they should buy a nihonto when it isn't even full tang. There are a lot of misconceptions floating out there. A guy at my work recently bragged about how he bought a real Japanese made katana from the back room of a friend's shop during his travels to New York for under $100. I let him brag and walked away feeling sorry for the guy. People buy what is hyped up and looks good. eBay sellers are catering to that market. I find it hard to blame them but I definitely don't like it and I definitely think some of their talents are being wasted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 7:50:13 GMT
Ya know... You aren't the first one to do this. There have been many before you, and surely many after you, that have bought many swords from all the eBay vendors (both laminated and not) and found them unsatisfactory. Why then, after all this bad news, do we still have people repeating these multiple buy tests? I don't understand it. It's already established that the laminated blades are not laminated. It's already knows that the quality is low. Why do people continue to do this? What would you suggest? That we all gonna buy the famous, superb, unbeatable Ronin Katanas? Or stick to much more expensive stuff like Dynasty Forge or Hanwei? I could send you pictures of Hanwei swords i used to own which would turn you into a deep red of shame...and the Ronin problems i had i shared with quite some other people also. I dont know nothing about lamination techniques, point given, but when it comes to blade toughness and good fitting parts whether Huawei, nor Ryan nor Hanbon had let me down...all of them durable, sharp blades with OK handling characteristics...and thats fine for me and a lot of other guys i assume. It sure is not OK to fraud people with fake lamination techniques, but beyond all your bashing on the ebay vendors i really would like to know which brand YOU would suggest...and WHY...and please, as mentioned earlier, dont put this RK stuff on me...i had my share with them.
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Aug 15, 2015 14:54:08 GMT
Holg, no problem, I am unoffended by your firmly held views. People all have different things they key on which please them in a sword. I am a sucker for tight Ito and a sharp, well defined yokote. The ethics of a seller, and his willingness to resolve disputes is also very important to me. Based upon my limited experience, it appears some sellers do try to ship out Maru Damascus (solid Damascus) blades as fancy laminations such as Sanmai, Honsanmai and Shihozume. As an update, the second vendor which I sent pictures to (which shows the blades as Maru Damascus) has agreed an error occurred on the assembly floor, and has pledged to send blades. He too does not currently have stock of Sanmai blades, and will have to produce the replacement blades. Current relults: Vendor zero, Katana, Wakizashi and Tanto. Should be Sanmai, all 3 were Maru Damascus. Received refund when returned. Vendor one, Katana. Should be Shihozume, was actually Maru Damascus. Vendor pledges to send replacement blade. Vendor two, Katana and Wakizashi. Should be Sanmai, both blades were Maru Damascus. Vendor pledges replacements. Vendor three, First Katana, Should be Sanmai. Blade was actually Sanmai (yeah!) Vendor three (repeat order after first blade) second Katana. Should be Sanmai, second blade was Maru Damascus. Vendor four, Katana, Should be gyaku (reverse) Kobuse. Awaiting arrival. Summary: Five vendors, Nine swords, One actual lamination, one waiting for delivery (fingers crossed), the rest Maru Damascus.
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Post by Tavx on Aug 15, 2015 15:06:39 GMT
Quite honestly, I have nothing against Chinese ebay sellers, I have bought from several, and even the ryansword I bought which may or may not be a fake sanmai blade, has great fit and finish, and has absolutely no issues other than the blade composition. As long as you know what you're getting ahead of time, Chinese sellers are fantastic. I'm really not upset about Ryansword, and though I probably won't buy from them again, if a friend was looking for something specific, like Ryansword's "tactical outdoor survival katana" or whatever, I would not try to stop them. Ryanswords are good products if you stick to what they make well. Sanmai blades are not that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 15:23:55 GMT
That case seems to be clear; bad fraudulation. As i tried to express, my problem is with certain guys bashing all Longquan stuff in general; and thats neither fair nor honest. Especially when preferring certain brands which get their blades from Longquan also... But here, in this "lamination lamentation", youre absolutely right and righteous to put these facts into light, especially for newbies. So the essence should be: Should i buy Longquan swords? Sure, but stick to the well-reputated ones...and to Maru-style blades. Should i avoid Longquan swords? Well, i dont think so...if we avoid them for curious business behaviour and statements i know at least one western company that everybody should stay the hell away off...but thats not liked to be mentioned here; and i say justice for all! Bashing one, OK, then also bashing the others who deserve it...being it katana or euroswords...
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 15, 2015 15:34:17 GMT
Ya know... You aren't the first one to do this. There have been many before you, and surely many after you, that have bought many swords from all the eBay vendors (both laminated and not) and found them unsatisfactory. Why then, after all this bad news, do we still have people repeating these multiple buy tests? I don't understand it. It's already established that the laminated blades are not laminated. It's already knows that the quality is low. Why do people continue to do this? What would you suggest? That we all gonna buy the famous, superb, unbeatable Ronin Katanas? Or stick to much more expensive stuff like Dynasty Forge or Hanwei? I could send you pictures of Hanwei swords i used to own which would turn you into a deep red of shame...and the Ronin problems i had i shared with quite some other people also. I dont know nothing about lamination techniques, point given, but when it comes to blade toughness and good fitting parts whether Huawei, nor Ryan nor Hanbon had let me down...all of them durable, sharp blades with OK handling characteristics...and thats fine for me and a lot of other guys i assume. It sure is not OK to fraud people with fake lamination techniques, but beyond all your bashing on the ebay vendors i really would like to know which brand YOU would suggest...and WHY...and please, as mentioned earlier, dont put this RK stuff on me...i had my share with them. I'm not sure where you keep getting that I like RK or DF. I had a DF Musha blade and I liked it, but I didn't have much to say about it. It was just a bare blade, so I couldn't comment on the fittings or anything. It was beefy, but had good geometry, I think. Just TH 1060, if I remember right. I've never held anything by Ronin, so I don't have much to say about them either. I'm a huge fan of the low dollar Musashis. Why? Because they are the same blades (assumably) you are getting on your $200 eBay swords, but they are a lot cheaper. Sure, they're gonna have most of the same QC issues as the eBay market, but you didn't pay near as much for them. And the problems on them show up a lot less than in the eBay kat world. So anything from the $36 entry TH kats all the way up to the $120 Shirikawa shobu, I highly reccomend. Also, the Munetoshi (used to be Jubei) Water Dragon/Lion Dog. Another excellent DH bargain with really nice fittings and well shaped tsuka. At least, for the price. Right at $100, I think. Another I reccomend is the low end Hanweis. PPKs, PK Lite, etc. I think most of them are just over $200. And, yes, every company sends out lemons. I'm not denying that you have received swords with problems. What I'm saying is that it happens considerably less with brands like Hanwei. I see stuff all the time wrong with the eBay kats. And it's a lot easier and cheaper to exchange or get a refund when you're shipping to a dealer in your country instead of China. The reason I recommend these SO MUCH over eBay vendors is that chances are... These people are more than likely wanting them to go beat on trees or some such. Not saying all of them, but I see a large number of people that want to take their katana camping and then wonder why it fell apart. Another reason is that you are basically getting a blade of at least the same quality (within a certain price range, mind you) for half, or less, money. So why pay twice as much for the same thing? I know you don't care about the laminated blades, and that's fine, but they are still deliberately lying to people. Over and over. Even if they did put out things that I thought were better, would I want to buy from a vendor that I knew was straight up lying about their product? Not really. And that even begs the question, if they are lying about lamination, how are you even supposed to know that the blade you ordered was actually the steel you wanted? There's no way to tell. It could be anything. And you can't really just trust them when you already know they are lying. It might be the T10 you ordered. But probably not. Yeah, there are a couple trustworthy eBay vendors. But then you're paying $350-$500 (sometimes even more) for the sword you want. The problem with that is, they only get compared to other eBay vendors. Sure, they might be great standing next to a garbage can, but you have to start comparing them to other brands in that range. Not just eBay. For that price, you start getting in to things like Kanie (never handled one, they just look nice and I've only heard of 1 person not being satisfied) or the Hanwei Shinto. I'd much rather have a Shinto. Or maybe even Bugei. So there ya go. There's the who, what, where, and why. Hope it makes sense.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 15, 2015 15:48:08 GMT
Go for it Adder, I for one will greatly appreciate that you will do this. Even though I don't think I'll ever buy a sword from Chinese eBayer, I still think it's valuable contribution to the forum and buyers in general. I can't understand the negative athmosphere I'm sensing in this forum lately in multiple threads. We should be the friendly forum who tries to offer the best possible information to those interested in swords in general. This is the buyers guide, and if a buyer seeks help giving the best help we can is important. Adder is going to purchase and review 9 different sword from 5 different companies and I will applaud that. I can't understand how anyone can see anything bad with that? There is no set criteria (to my understanding) who can review what at SBG and that is part of the charm here. Heck if you check reviews down the line many of us might have had somekind of business affiliation with some company somewhere in the line. I know I have had in the past, and partly the reason why I don't do reviews anymore is because I wasn't totally honest in my own mind. I decided I will quit reviewing stuff and for me it was good decision. Of course review like that will bring some good publicity and some bad publicity. Back when I did my own comparison I got messages from all 3 smaller companies afterwards and discussed with them a bit, as for them it might have affected something, of course Hanwei didn't care. The reality is that we actually have only quite few active members here, this modern generation is not really the patient forum reading type. You can check some view numbers on reviews and see how minor the influence really is. Most people don't research a thing and just buy swords on eBay. You have my full support for your review. That is the kind of stuff this forum needs in my opinion.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 15, 2015 16:24:02 GMT
I'm a huge fan of the low dollar Musashis. Why? Because they are the same blades (assumably) you are getting on your $200 eBay swords, but they are a lot cheaper. Sure, they're gonna have most of the same QC issues as the eBay market, but you didn't pay near as much for them. And the problems on them show up a lot less than in the eBay kat world. So anything from the $36 entry TH kats all the way up to the $120 Shirikawa shobu, I highly reccomend. Also, the Munetoshi (used to be Jubei) Water Dragon/Lion Dog. Another excellent DH bargain with really nice fittings and well shaped tsuka. At least, for the price. Right at $100, I think. I can't quite agree with this. Don't get me wrong, musashi blades are probably the best quality per dollar swords around. You can't get DH blades for that cheap anywhere. However, I can't say that they are the same quality. The eBay forges make some okay stuff. It isn't linear in the price per quality graph, but it ins't too bad. Another I reccomend is the low end Hanweis. PPKs, PK Lite, etc. I think most of them are just over $200. And, yes, every company sends out lemons. I'm not denying that you have received swords with problems. What I'm saying is that it happens considerably less with brands like Hanwei. I see stuff all the time wrong with the eBay kats. And it's a lot easier and cheaper to exchange or get a refund when you're shipping to a dealer in your country instead of China. The reason I recommend these SO MUCH over eBay vendors is that chances are... These people are more than likely wanting them to go beat on trees or some such. Not saying all of them, but I see a large number of people that want to take their katana camping and then wonder why it fell apart. Another reason is that you are basically getting a blade of at least the same quality (within a certain price range, mind you) for half, or less, money. So why pay twice as much for the same thing? This is very much agreeable. I can attest that, at least in my experience, the eBay forges are about even with Hanwei when it comes to cutting. The feel of the two are completely different though. And you are right, eBay swords cost about 1/2 to 1/3 of the original price just to return. A lot of back yard cutters would be better off just buying a sword form a relatively local shop to avoid insane shipping fees in case of lemons. I know you don't care about the laminated blades, and that's fine, but they are still deliberately lying to people. Over and over. Even if they did put out things that I thought were better, would I want to buy from a vendor that I knew was straight up lying about their product? Not really. And that even begs the question, if they are lying about lamination, how are you even supposed to know that the blade you ordered was actually the steel you wanted? There's no way to tell. It could be anything. And you can't really just trust them when you already know they are lying. It might be the T10 you ordered. But probably not. Yeah, there are a couple trustworthy eBay vendors. But then you're paying $350-$500 (sometimes even more) for the sword you want. The problem with that is, they only get compared to other eBay vendors. Sure, they might be great standing next to a garbage can, but you have to start comparing them to other brands in that range. Not just eBay. For that price, you start getting in to things like Kanie (never handled one, they just look nice and I've only heard of 1 person not being satisfied) or the Hanwei Shinto. I'd much rather have a Shinto. Or maybe even Bugei. So there ya go. There's the who, what, where, and why. Hope it makes sense. I kinda equate Chinese t10 with American 1095 most of the time. I won't test and I probably couldn't tell the difference between the two if I had both in my hands. I find it unlikely though that they are shipping something like 1060 as t10. That I likely could tell the difference from. They both react differently to etching and different polishing methods. I'd say it's safe to assume the t10 I am ordering is Chinese T10. The thing about high end Hanwei is that they still feel pretty terrible in your hands, at least they do to me. Hanwei swords have some really nice blades, but something about them doesn't feel quite right. I also don't like their frosted hamon even if I love how they polish the swords and removing the hamon doesn't help the looks too much. I'm also not a big fan of their overall shape. Kaneie used to be tops, but it seems they have started taking shortcuts like you'd see in any other production sword. I think they are still really nice blades. I'm likely the guy who you've heard of that was not satisfied. And I am only not satisfied because of the advertised features that weren't there. I expect a lot more from a $1,000 sword than I do from a $400 or even a $200. I think the lying that eBay vendors do is a load of crap, but they do have some price per quality ratios on some of their stuff that is pretty alright. No gem, nothing worth writing home about, but it fills a niche that the above companies do not. I think in the end it is up to personal taste.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 15, 2015 16:32:22 GMT
How on earth do you split up the quotes like that? I've been trying to figure that out since we switched to the new forum. And that was, like, over a year ago? Something like that.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 15, 2015 16:51:24 GMT
I don't think anyone is saying not to review the swords Jussi or that they don't appreciate it, at least I'm not. A review is a review and taken as such but a sticky might imply a conclusive result or possibly the final word on these products, sellers or manufacturers. That would be great imo but if done, should be a bit more involved to provide more scientifically accurate results and not just the regular opinions. I appreciate what the Mythbusters have done but some of their methods were lacking and therefore made their results a little questionable.
All I was suggesting before was that if it's going to be posted as a sticky, which can be interpreted in a different way, it might help to take a more scientific approach. Just a suggestion, just my opinion. I also appreciate anyone willing to spend their money and take a risk and then be willing to share their findings with the community. It means something to me because I do buy lower to mid priced Chinese katana and I do buy some from ebay and I would like to know what is fake and what isn't but without absolute proof, it's hard to fully believe something, at least for me. I don't know some of the methods mentioned, which might be the best way to tell but to me, cutting something open is absolute proof. I could be very wrong about this, I know very little about metallurgy and lamination.
Anyway, I'm not discouraging any testing or reviews and I do appreciate the effort and personal expense and I don't see any resistance to this in general.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 15, 2015 16:53:05 GMT
How on earth do you split up the quotes like that? I've been trying to figure that out since we switched to the new forum. And that was, like, over a year ago? Something like that. content in between the quotes this looks like this in BBCode - more content in between the quotes [and so on] [ ] using the quote brackets to section off content is pretty much it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 16:59:02 GMT
To mikeeman: Yes, i fully am on the Munetoshi side...great value for money. But the Musashi stuff...sorry. Bent blades, wavy fullers, split tsukas, very loose ito...no. Not at all. My Huaweis and Ryans beat that Musashi stuff every day, and these were 150,- to 200,- USD swords with much better wrapping and fit&finish! Cheaper Hanweis...see Musashi. Bugei & Kaneie: i am not so deep into katana to spend that much money...remains to be seen. Some day?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 15, 2015 17:09:25 GMT
Like josh said, just add the bbcode in between what you want to split up. I just copied the "[ quote source="xxxxx" author="@xxxxxx" timestamp="xxxxxxx"]" and put it before the beginning of the next split. You add "[/quote]" at the end of the section. I added an extra space so it didn't show up as an actual quote.
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