addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 15, 2015 17:36:16 GMT
I don't think anyone is saying not to review the swords Jussi or that they don't appreciate it, at least I'm not. A review is a review and taken as such but a sticky might imply a conclusive result or possibly the final word on these products, sellers or manufacturers. That would be great imo but if done, should be a bit more involved to provide more scientifically accurate results and not just the regular opinions. I appreciate what the Mythbusters have done but some of their methods were lacking and therefore made their results a little questionable. All I was suggesting before was that if it's going to be posted as a sticky, which can be interpreted in a different way, it might help to take a more scientific approach. Just a suggestion, just my opinion. I also appreciate anyone willing to spend their money and take a risk and then be willing to share their findings with the community. It means something to me because I do buy lower to mid priced Chinese katana and I do buy some from ebay and I would like to know what is fake and what isn't but without absolute proof, it's hard to fully believe something, at least for me. I don't know some of the methods mentioned, which might be the best way to tell but to me, cutting something open is absolute proof. I could be very wrong about this, I know very little about metallurgy and lamination. Anyway, I'm not discouraging any testing or reviews and I do appreciate the effort and personal expense and I don't see any resistance to this in general. ******************************************************************************************************* Cutting swords in half and etching is certainly definitive. However, if the grain of Damascus is seen all the way to the edge, on both sides of the blade, for the full length of the edge is also definitive proof of Maru Damascus, no cutting or etching needed. The exception would be if you look at the spine (mune) and see a ribbon of different metal, it could be Kobuse . If the blade is Shihozume Core, with medium steel at the Mune, soft iron at the core, and hard steel at the edge, the magnetic characteristics change in the blade at those boundary zones. Soft iron is much more permeable to a magnetic field than medium or hard steel. It makes a distinctive change in the induced magnetic field (which is what magnaflux testing looks for). Once again, no need to saw in half and etch to see this. This form of testing can even see microscopic cracks which are too fine for a person with a magnifying lens to see. Non-ferrous metals, such as aluminum, magnesium and titanum use a product called Zyglo to see the same kinds of cracks. A whole industry with advance tools exists for non-destructive testing, and the results have been critically compared with classical destructive methods to confirm they yield the same results. There are also minimally destructive testing methods, such as a Rockwell tester which creates a small dimple in the surface of the metal to accurately determine hardness, this method is also well proven. You don't need to destroy a blade to determine how it is made.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 15, 2015 21:39:58 GMT
A whole industry with advance tools exists for non-destructive testing, and the results have been critically compared with classical destructive methods to confirm they yield the same results. There are also minimally destructive testing methods, such as a Rockwell tester which creates a small dimple in the surface of the metal to accurately determine hardness, this method is also well proven. You don't need to destroy a blade to determine how it is made. Thanks for the info. It sounds though like all this equipment would be very expensive and maybe hard for someone to obtain it. Do you have access to all of this? If so, that would be awesome
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 15, 2015 22:30:56 GMT
The UV laser and photography equipment is on hand. The Rockwell tester is in town, and available for use (for a fee) The Magnaflux tester is available at anywhere which reconditions car crank shafts, but I can fabricate a simple one. The Magnaflux (for sword analysis) is easy to fabricate. You have a small coil which is air-core. The coil is placed in contact with the blade of the sword. The permeability of the metal immediately underneath the coil changes its inductance. You measure the inductance of the coil as it is scanned past places of interest in the blade. Any jump in inductance indicates a change in the metal underneath. For example, on a shihozume blade, it has a central core of soft iron, which has a very high permeability. The inductance of the coil (measured in henrys) will increase as it passes over the soft iron. It will then reduce when it passes over a part of the core which is medium or hard steel. This basic method allows you to determine structures which lay under an outer layer of Damascus or other metal. By the relative percentage of change in inductance, relative to the inductance seen at the edge (ha), the hardness can be estimated of the hidden structure.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 16, 2015 0:48:39 GMT
Personally, I vote that three things be done in order to make this testing useful:
1.) Change the title of this thread and/or make a separate thread entitled something like "Ebay katanas: a comparative review" or "ebay katanas: matallurgy and lamination" and post both in this forum and in the review section. You can even add the several posts in this thread to that one.
2.) the various stores tested be linked, and other reviews on them be linked as well.
3.) full disclosure of the technical aspects of the review in a spoiler, so those interested can read why it's useful and accurate.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 16, 2015 2:09:23 GMT
I will do a separate post for the ebay swords. My comments here are just a discussion to get good ideas for format and what content people want.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 19, 2015 0:30:45 GMT
The word may be getting out in Longquan that swordsellers which are shipping non actual Sanmai, Kobuse, ect may get a request for the correct blade. I am waiting for the seller's explanation on this strange shipping route, could be something innocent.
Attachments:
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Post by gregee on Aug 19, 2015 0:58:08 GMT
Is this the Kobuse from Hanbon? I am looking forward to your review of that one.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 19, 2015 1:12:10 GMT
I won't tell before I kiss. Once all the swords are on hand, the chips will fall where they may. Although, shipping out from Longquan, making it to Wenzhou, turning around and heading back to Longquan is mighty odd. The seller responded with he was puzzled, and will mail it back out.
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Post by gregee on Aug 19, 2015 1:18:37 GMT
Of all the swords I have bought from Longquan, none of them have done this in terms of shipping. It is curious.
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Post by zabazagobo on Aug 19, 2015 1:55:54 GMT
That would be hilarious if the return trip to Longquan was because the seller realized "oh ****, it's that guy" and figured it was in his best interest to send the correct sword the first time. Most likely he just messed up the shipping label...maybe.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 21, 2015 15:02:44 GMT
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Mikeeman
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Small Business Operator
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 21, 2015 16:37:22 GMT
I think I'm gonna be sick....
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 21, 2015 16:52:42 GMT
Mikeeman you know in your heart you really love Ryan swords, just give in and go with you heart.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 21, 2015 17:01:56 GMT
I think I'm gonna be sick.... Better hurry up and buy one before the only two they have in stock sell. ;) :D
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 21, 2015 17:05:08 GMT
My guess is that the "copper plated with silver" is in reality a 5-20$ alloy fitting set that is commonly featured in many cheap Longquan made swords. The same set in John Lee tachi:
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Aug 21, 2015 17:15:09 GMT
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 21, 2015 18:51:45 GMT
That's definitely catering to the anime not-samurai. Noto with a sakabto would be a nightmare... I think this just drives the point home that they sell what the market wants, and that is nice looking swords for cheap, regardless of how traditional or functional they are. Sites like TrueSwords is evidence of this as well.
Edit: I like the broken Photobucket embedded images too.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Aug 21, 2015 19:05:13 GMT
Interesting photos on the Ryan Sword. In the polishing pictures it looks like tamahagne, but the close ups of the finished blade looks exactly like the standard Damascus I received from him.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 21, 2015 19:08:50 GMT
Mikeeman you know in your heart you really love Ryan swords, just give in and go with you heart. Yup. You caught me. I actually just bought two of the swords he linked. Because it's Ryanswords, so you know it's legit and they are definitely not lying. What a great deal.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 21, 2015 19:10:37 GMT
It's folded in basically the same way as every other sword they make, so the grain will be similar. The steel itself I believe is the lower quality extras you can buy from Japan. Wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't a Chinese made substitute though.
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