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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 13:39:08 GMT
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I've created this thread to discuss: 1) what is a laminated blade 2) construction types 3) how to detect fake ones
I will add pictures and links from my "other" thread here at a later date. There is no need to bring additional attention to the "other" thread if you know what I mean.
I want to keep a discussion going here related to all aspects of steel lamination.
Blacksmiths please chime in. And if you make laminated steel please PM me, I'm interested!
Also, let me say that faking a laminated steel for aesthetics or purposes of adornment is fine as long as there is full disclosure. I have nothing against that because that is just personal taste/choice.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 13:39:32 GMT
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 13:54:24 GMT
Sorry about repeating the question, but the seller of the knife you provided the link is not claiming sanmai or damascus in the ebay post. He/she is claiming "Blade Steel: high carbon steel". Unfortunately it's not very descriptive.
1) Do your 3 knives look exactly like the one in the ebay post? 2) Can you "tell" if the blade is sanmai from the current pictures on ebay? 3) I'm still interesting in buying one of yours
I will contact the ebay seller and ask them directly, and buy one if the seller confirms sanmai or damascus. The blade to me looks like it's only damascus but it's hard to tell from just a few low-resolution photos.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 28, 2014 15:38:54 GMT
Hi Digs, Of the 3 I have, one is my "cut everything" beater. One is my "keep it pristine". The knife not perfectly done (more of the core exposed on one side of the blade than the other) is for a gift for a friend. It is always a gamble on these relatively inexpensive China knives, whether one gets a perfect or flawed knife. Anyway, let me see what I can do. Thanks for the idea. RinC
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Post by Aurélien on Nov 28, 2014 16:50:20 GMT
VERY educative. Thank you very much, man. The home-made etching technique is SO simple, it's almost frightning And it gives a clear answer to my question : YES, they can easily fake a laminated line!
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 28, 2014 17:14:11 GMT
yep - lamination lines are easy to fake (man, I hate false advertising/crooks). One thing I would do if I really, really wanted to know if the lamination was fake etched would be to sand it down using high grit sandpaper (getting rid of the "lamination" line), then re-etch the blade and see if the lamination line reappears. If it doesn't, then you know it's a dud.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 17:27:33 GMT
I found a seller on ebay (from America) that sells suspicious looking laminated small knives starting at a low cost. If I can get them for a low price I will very likely buy a few and test them out.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 28, 2014 17:45:14 GMT
Ok, I just ordered the below Chinese knife via Ebay to be shipped to Atrixnet for analysis and review. It looks just like the knives I got. We shall now find out if true Sanmai or not. www.ebay.com/itm/Handmade-Damasc ... 58b7d64519 Happy Black Friday you all. Last night, went to my local 7-11 for a coffee. Next door to a large Walmart store. Their huge parking lot was jam packed! And this about 8pm (Thurs). Long, long lines. Wife went to local Kohl's. She said line of people waiting for the doors to open, about 3 blocks long. So did not even try to go in. RinC
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 28, 2014 19:18:34 GMT
I'm confused, why was that knife chosen for any testing? It doesn't claim to be sanmai, honsanmai, or any other type of lamination. It does state however that it's made of "high carbon stainless steel". What will you be testing for exactly?
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 19:41:00 GMT
Robert claims his knives are sanmai, and that what he bought is this very knife. I have contacted the seller to get clarification.
I found a different ebay seller who is selling the same knife but he claims it's real damascus (iron and steel). I have contacted the seller to get clarification, and I bought the knife. <$24 USD free shipping I can use this knife and a real damascus blank that I have to develop and validate my tests. The same tests can be used for both laminated steel and damascus.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,289
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Post by Greg E on Nov 28, 2014 23:23:44 GMT
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Post by Anankai on Nov 29, 2014 1:03:46 GMT
It looks legit. Technically it's not a laminated construction but a wrapping construction. For Kobuse method, it's a soft core steel wrapped in a harder outer steel. For the katana in your ebay link, it's Gyaku-Kobuse method. It's basically an inverted Kobuse, meaning that the core is hard steel, which is forming the blade's edge, and the outer wrapping steel is softer. Kobuse style: (harder outer steel, softer core steel) Gyaku-Kobuse style: (softer outer steel, harder core steel) O=outer steel C=core steel More infos here: www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/construction.html
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,289
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Post by Greg E on Nov 29, 2014 3:01:33 GMT
OK, so not laminated. Sorry for hijacking thread.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 29, 2014 3:21:07 GMT
Yes it is laminated, as I would define it. WIKI defines laminated steel as: A laminated steel blade or piled steel is a knife, sword, or other tool blade made out of layers of differing types of steel, rather than a single homogeneous alloy.
To take it a little further... WIKI: Pattern welding is the practice in sword and knife making of forming a blade of several metal pieces of differing composition that are forge-welded together and twisted and manipulated to form a pattern. Often called (Modern) Damascus steel, blades forged in this manner often display bands of slightly different patterning along their entire length
The lamination process to make Kobuse or Gyaku-Kobuse is done by wrapping as Anankai described it. And you're not hijacking the thread. Thanks for the link!
And the ebay post looks very much legit, but I would still ask the seller for better pictures to to be sure.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 29, 2014 4:57:38 GMT
I don't have any Hanbon GYAKU-KOBUSE
"The construction of the blade is GYAKU-KOBUSE, one kind of KOBUSE construction, It is constructed of two different kinds of steel, the core steel and the outer steel, where the core steel is wrapped with the outer steel. the core steel is harder than the outer steel.
the outer steel was made of folded steel. AISI 1060 High Carbon Steel are folded 12 times creating 4096 layers for superior strength and flexibility. the visible tenuous undulating grain on the blade was resulted from folded repeatedly during forging.
The core steel was made of 1095 steel, The steel has been thoroughly refined and tempered, A special clay is applied to the blade by hand, using a thin covering near the edge and a thicker layer over the rest of the blade. this results in a relatively quicker cooling of the edge during quenching, producing a hard edge and softer back. the beautiful real hamon on the blade is also result of the differential cooling of the blade (quenching and tempering)."
Looks like folded sanmai by another name.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Nov 29, 2014 5:14:41 GMT
Too me those chinese knives don't look hand forged the hammer mark pattern doesn't look right.
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 29, 2014 5:37:53 GMT
I agree. Honestly, it almost looks like they might be cast or the "forge scale" was imprinted/indented on the blade somehow or even etched in. I'm also finding the "damascus" pattern to look a little faked, maybe also etched on. The blackened portion looks like paint or some other applied coating.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Nov 29, 2014 5:49:58 GMT
If the hammer marks are real the smith was using a meat tenderizer hammer to do them. Or maybe a press with pebble pattern dies.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 29, 2014 13:48:02 GMT
I agree. And a good example to start with. I contacted the seller and asked (copy and paste from the email) Hello, Is this real damascus? Is this real folded steel? Is this sanmai or laminated steel?
It's looks beautiful.
Thank you
His/Her reply (copy and paste from the email)
yes it is real folded steel. yes it is a real FORGED steel. It's beautiful. wish you good every day
I should receive the knife before the end of Jan 2015. I'm also looking at some non-Chinese made knives because I don't want to pick on any one culture or country. Forgery is a world-wide issue.
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Post by Anankai on Nov 29, 2014 14:40:20 GMT
I don't believe this knife is the real deal either, for the same reasons Josh as mentioned. I mean, is it possible to get a handforged damascus blade for only 24$? I guess will see when Digs receives it...
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