|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 13, 2015 1:00:46 GMT
Cross polishing on most production kissaki is done more to emulate the polish done on traditional Japanese blades than to represent a geometric shift. They are usually done very poorly in a low grit and resulting in an eyesore and also obscuring any signs of a boshi. A properly polished kissaki is a difficult thing that takes expert skills. The tones of the hamon vs the ji appear almost reversed in some types of polishing. Typical messy cross polished kissaki (w/out geo yokote) A properly polished kissaki (w/ geo yokote) One of the pitfalls of choosing different fittings with the ebay sellers is that they won't necessarily make a new core that is sized for the fittings you choose. Not all the fittings share the same dimensions and you will occasionally get a tsuka more narrow than the fuchi or a fuchi too small for the core resulting in an either emaciated looking tsuka or a bloated looking one. Interchangeable and low cost don't often mix well.
|
|
Mikeeman
Member
Small Business Operator
Posts: 2,904
|
Post by Mikeeman on Aug 13, 2015 1:04:38 GMT
Cross polishing on most production kissaki is done more to emulate the polish done on traditional Japanese blades than to represent a geometric shift. They are usually done very poorly in a low grit and resulting in an eyesore and also obscuring any signs of a boshi. A properly polished kissaki is a difficult thing that takes expert skills. The tones of the hamon vs the ji appear almost reversed in some types of polishing. One of the pitfalls of choosing different fittings with the ebay sellers is that they won't necessarily make a new core that is sized for the fittings you choose. Not all the fittings share the same dimensions and you will occasionally get a tsuka more narrow than the fuchi or a fuchi too small for the core resulting in an either emaciated looking tsuka or a bloated looking one. Interchangeable and low cost don't often mix well. This happens sometimes on the $40 Musashis. My quick fix for that is to wrap under the fuchi with some of that cheap medical tape stuff until it fits snugly On the other hand, with the prices you get some of these swords at, I really don't think they should have the same problems that a $40 has.
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 13:42:44 GMT
A quick update on the Damascus blades which were received, instead of the Sanmai and Shihozume they were sold as. Of the 6 blades on hand. The maru 5160 is (no surprise) Maru 5160. Of the 4 Sanmai blades (from various vendors) only one is Sanmai, the rest are Maru Damascus. Of the 1 Shihozume blade received, it is Maru Damascus. All of the vendors I have complained to through Ebay are responding. They were sent detailed photographs which show the folds of the Damascus steel all the way to the edge. All of them have responded with "are you sure?" All have requested additional photographs. All have claimed their "master craftsman" might have accidently grabbed the wrong blade. One has offered to send a replacement blade (once they are satisfied the blade I got really is maru Damascus). One has offered a partial refund (once he is convinced the blade is really maru Damascus. As a reference, I am attaching 3 photos. One of them will be actual SanMai, the other two which should be Shihozume and SanMai are actually maru Damascus. Lets see who can spot the real one among the fakes.
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 13:56:24 GMT
I would need to see more photographs of #1 (the one on top) to be convinced it's the sanmai one. The pictures are very grainy to be 100% sure. Actually all three look like maru Damascus because it's very grainy, or because all three are maru Damascus.
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 14:07:25 GMT
With the damascus fluorescing under UV light, it is difficult to get razor sharp images. One of the blades has a "hazuya-like" finish which further scatters the light. After examining dozens of photos, one of them stands out as notably different. I can understand why a set of 3 photos is much harder to differentiate.
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 14:14:56 GMT
... All have requested additional photographs. All have claimed their "master craftsman" might have accidently grabbed the wrong blade. ...
I want to mention that you don't need to have expensive digital photographic equipment or UV lights to see that the unfolded core steel is or is not there. All you need is to open your eyes and look for it. But to credit addertooth "great idea to enhance the photos!". I just don't want people defending these crooks by claiming this hi-tech equipment is not available to them. And the ebay sellers have no place blaming the swordsmiths. The smiths make the blades, there is a team (or person) assembling the components, and a person(s) shipping the blade. Perhaps the wrong blade was shipped. I doubt it, it happens too often, and in my cases there were no sanmai blades available to replace the "maru Damascus". It's fraudulent activity plain and simple. And returning the customer's money doesn't make it right. Addertooth knew what he was doing, 99% of the other customers do not. Fooling the public and returning the money of the few that know better is not right.
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 14:56:02 GMT
I have doubled down and asked the vendors to specify "any" part of the blades to re-photograph. I have dug out some additional goodies to improve the clarity of the new pictures (yet to be photographed). The goal is to leave them absolutely no wiggle-room to deny the blades are full Damascus. One vendor has hinted the 1095 core should not be seen, as it is "fully wrapped" in Damascus. As we all know, if the 1095 has "any" thickness, it will be seen at the edge, no matter how fully wrapped. I am loath to send any of them back (went through that once, and it was a major pain). Happiness is a full rack. And yes, one space is free awaiting what should be a reverse Kobuse from Swordsmith668 (Hanbon).
Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 14, 2015 15:29:22 GMT
It's unfortunate that Digs is right. The vast majority of buyers won't know the difference. A handful of random Google searches might come across this thread and be helped. I'd like to see this edited to have most of the information in the first post and this thread get a sticky. That way beginners who come here might learn before it's too late. You've done all of us a huge service.
|
|
|
Post by Tavx on Aug 14, 2015 15:52:18 GMT
Let me start by saying I think some Chinese manufacterers may not realize what sanmai is supposed to be, so they sell fakes not realizing it's possible to tell, or sell very bad sanmai not knowing how it's supposed to be made. I have a Ryansword that was billed as sanmai, and with mine I was told that it does not have exposed 1095 because they didn't want it to look bad. One other post on these forums said that once the edge was polished on a sanmai ryansword the solid core started showing. addertooth, you said you had a method to determine the internal structure of a sanmai blade? Have you used that method on any of these fakes? I would be interested to know if the examples you have been sent are truly fakes, or if they are very bad sanmai.
I only say this because my "sanmai" ryansword does appear to be a very bad sanmai blade. I can see some of the damascus layers that appear to be only surface deep, and what appears to be a solid core under it, as some of the damascus layers just seem to disappear when they should be solid layer. Ryansword's explanation to me is they covered the core with a damascus layer to try to make it look better.
I only have very very bad pictures, no method available for good pictures, and I am somewhat embarrassed as this was my first katana purchase. It's a colored blade... and I will never purchase another ryansword because they took a long time to ship and provided an inferior product on top of that.
Anyhow, that is my input, and either way a bad product is a bad product.
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 16:37:05 GMT
Let me start by saying I think some Chinese manufacterers may not realize what sanmai is supposed to be, so they sell fakes not realizing it's possible to tell, or sell very bad sanmai not knowing how it's supposed to be made. I have a Ryansword that was billed as sanmai, and with mine I was told that it does not have exposed 1095 because they didn't want it to look bad. One other post on these forums said that once the edge was polished on a sanmai ryansword the solid core started showing. addertooth, you said you had a method to determine the internal structure of a sanmai blade? Have you used that method on any of these fakes? I would be interested to know if the examples you have been sent are truly fakes, or if they are very bad sanmai. I only say this because my "sanmai" ryansword does appear to be a very bad sanmai blade. I can see some of the damascus layers that appear to be only surface deep, and what appears to be a solid core under it, as some of the damascus layers just seem to disappear when they should be solid layer. Ryansword's explanation to me is they covered the core with a damascus layer to try to make it look better. I only have very very bad pictures, no method available for good pictures, and I am somewhat embarrassed as this was my first katana purchase. It's a colored blade... and I will never purchase another ryansword because they took a long time to ship and provided an inferior product on top of that. Anyhow, that is my input, and either way a bad product is a bad product. Tavx, sorry to hear that you might have received a fake sanmai blade from RS. But I believe that Ebay sellers who post pictures of the sanmai or hon-sanmai lamination such as the picture below absolutely realize what sanmai is supposed to be. Ebay sellers who buy blades with the intention to customize them to whatever the costumer wants are definitely checking to make sure that they themselves don't get ripped off. The issue of customers receiving fake laminated blades happens too often to say it's a mistake. Also, I have seen many offerings on Ebay where the photos do not demonstrate the lamination of the blade. And in my case where the "stock photos" did show a lamination line, well the blades I received were not laminated. " Ryansword's explanation to me is they covered the core with a damascus layer to try to make it look better." I'm not sure if this is literally what he said, but if it is, it's absurd. It's absurd because you don't want hard steel in the core and the softer steel at the edge. If the core steel was a soft tough mild steel and it was all covered in a good damasucus jacket then that would make sense. But wait, that lamination is called makuri and not sanmai. .
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 16:39:12 GMT
And let me post this pic from Ryanswords where he clearly points to the unfolded steel exposed at the edge
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 14, 2015 16:39:52 GMT
The thing is that most of the swords are the opposite. They appear to be sanmai, but then you take a few layers off, removing the polish, and you see folded steel. They polish the folded steel to hide the folds near the edge and look like sanmai. You can see the folds by a few methods. If you have a good eye, you can stare at it. You can polish it, removing the polish that hid the folds, you can use uv, and you can etch it. The etch tends to work best after a new polish though.
|
|
|
Post by Tavx on Aug 14, 2015 16:41:41 GMT
Ryansword's exact words "This happens sometime. During the making process, some areas are hammered too much the folded steel is extended too long and it covers most part of 1095 steel, the whole folded steel layer has to be extended to that length to make the cutting edge have uniform look, otherwise one area has more 1095 steel exposed, one area has little 1095 exposed"
This was in response to me saying "The folded steel layer goes all the way to the edge of the blade and there is no exposed 1095 steel on the cutting edge as the listing suggests. It does not appear that this is a honsanmai blade."
|
|
|
Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Aug 14, 2015 16:52:03 GMT
Ryansword's exact words "This happens sometime. During the making process, some areas are hammered too much the folded steel is extended too long and it covers most part of 1095 steel, the whole folded steel layer has to be extended to that length to make the cutting edge have uniform look, otherwise one area has more 1095 steel exposed, one area has little 1095 exposed" This was in response to me saying "The folded steel layer goes all the way to the edge of the blade and there is no exposed 1095 steel on the cutting edge as the listing suggests. It does not appear that this is a honsanmai blade." Does the spine of your RS sword look like this sanmai blade or this faked sanmai blade from Katana1980 (Note that the spine has multiple layers of damascus running in the same direction and no unfolded steel is on the spine)
|
|
|
Post by Tavx on Aug 14, 2015 17:02:41 GMT
Digs, its a colored blade so it's hard to tell but it looks like damascus on the spine. Like I said it could just be a very badly made sanmai (and I know its not honsanmai) or it could be a fake. I kept it as a reminder that I had no idea what I was doing and to do my research in the future. I guess I just would rather assume a Chinese forge is incompetent rather than deceptive. There are cheats out there of course.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 17:13:52 GMT
i take the middle one...
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 19:26:44 GMT
Let me start by saying I think some Chinese manufacterers may not realize what sanmai is supposed to be, so they sell fakes not realizing it's possible to tell, or sell very bad sanmai not knowing how it's supposed to be made. I have a Ryansword that was billed as sanmai, and with mine I was told that it does not have exposed 1095 because they didn't want it to look bad. One other post on these forums said that once the edge was polished on a sanmai ryansword the solid core started showing. addertooth, you said you had a method to determine the internal structure of a sanmai blade? Have you used that method on any of these fakes? I would be interested to know if the examples you have been sent are truly fakes, or if they are very bad sanmai. I only say this because my "sanmai" ryansword does appear to be a very bad sanmai blade. I can see some of the damascus layers that appear to be only surface deep, and what appears to be a solid core under it, as some of the damascus layers just seem to disappear when they should be solid layer. Ryansword's explanation to me is they covered the core with a damascus layer to try to make it look better. I only have very very bad pictures, no method available for good pictures, and I am somewhat embarrassed as this was my first katana purchase. It's a colored blade... and I will never purchase another ryansword because they took a long time to ship and provided an inferior product on top of that. Anyhow, that is my input, and either way a bad product is a bad product.*****************************************************************************************************He tried a similar approach with me, the central core is clad with Damascus, but at the edge you are a few thousandths of an inch thick. Unless the core steel (1095) is a couple thousandths thick (impossible to keep aligned with the edge, and useless for durability and hardness, nobody makes a core a few thousandths thick), you WILL see the core extend beyond the Damascus as the blade is ground down to a sharp edge. The undulating grain (hada) of the Damascus ends, and a totally smooth core material emerges. Many vendors polish the final quarter inch width of the edge, which fools the eye into thinking they are seeing core steel. All they are seeing is more Damascus which has had the pattern weld lines obliterated by the polish. It can be difficult to see the Damascus lines when it is polished; this is why I employed a bit of exotica to image the layers (even when highly polished). And yes, I do have the ability to tell the difference between Sanmai and Shihozume. By employing a method similar to Magnaflux imaging, you can find the boundaries between the softer (and more magnetic) iron and medium/hard steel which makes up the core of a Shihozume blade. Sanmai is a continuous ribbon of steel (such as 1095) in the core. I also have a local shop with a Rockwell C scale tester. I can test the actual heat treat of the blades (I have to pay a fee) and it leaves a small dimple (about 1/32 of an inch) on the blade where tested. In a few weeks I will get a batch of swords together and pay the fee to have them tested at the edge and on the back (mune).
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 19:44:42 GMT
I was recently notified by Ryan they checked their inventory, and discovered they put the wrong blade on the sword. They stated they are currently out of Shihozume blades. They stated they will make a new blade and send it to me. I will keep everyone posted on the outcome. Digs.... had a similar promise at one point.
|
|
Mikeeman
Member
Small Business Operator
Posts: 2,904
|
Post by Mikeeman on Aug 14, 2015 19:45:45 GMT
Ya know...
You aren't the first one to do this. There have been many before you, and surely many after you, that have bought many swords from all the eBay vendors (both laminated and not) and found them unsatisfactory. Why then, after all this bad news, do we still have people repeating these multiple buy tests? I don't understand it. It's already established that the laminated blades are not laminated. It's already knows that the quality is low. Why do people continue to do this?
|
|
addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
|
Post by addertooth on Aug 14, 2015 19:50:38 GMT
The second (non-Ryan) SanMai vendor has asked for additional pictures. I asked them to specify what portions of the blade they want pictures of. (It is a pain to do, and requires cool down periods on the laser between shots).
|
|