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Post by nddave on Dec 30, 2014 16:45:32 GMT
Jussi has pretty much said it for me regarding this whole Ebay mess.
Robert there's no excuse for false advertising, if Tony or Katana1980 or whatever is posting Sanmai blades buy only offering cheap pattern welded blades he needs to be called on it. It doesn't matter if he did sell them two years ago or if he lost his sanmai smith a year ago or whatever, it's about the here and now with these reviews. Much like most of the "Whippy Windlass" reviews of the late 2000's. Look at Windlass now are they still whippy?
Some makers improve and some makers slack over the years. This should be updated regularly by our reviewers and members. That way the market not only stays honest and up to date but the buyers stay freshly informed as they look to this site and others to buy swords. That's why the main site and SMG.com upset me so much because they were never properly updated as things changed over the years. If you read through SMG last year it'd still tell you Gen2 is the best bang for your buck medieval and buy them at SwordsofValor.com...
No body should get the benefit of the doubt in these situations except the buyer. Even the big boys like Windlass, Hanwei, Valiant, Ronin and Musashi need to be kept fresh every time they release stock.
Another thing Jussi pointed out I'd like to respond to is the whole "one mans trash is anothers treasure" remark. So true especially in the production sword market. You'd be surprised how rave the on-site (trueswords) reviews were for the Shinwa brand I just reviewed. Half of the reviews would make you think they got a Nihonto for $160.00! I think the real issue is most of those people writing those reviews have never handled a higher end production katana and just don't know what to expect regarding materials used, craftsmanship, ECT. They probably don't know the benefit of alternating Ito, Heat treatment, steel grade, wood used for tsuka and saya, material used for the fittings and so forth. To most of them the only other katana they've ever handled was a $20.00 Duncan McCloud wallhanger, and man o' man, this here Sub-$100 production katana blows it out of the Water!!!
But I guess that's why we do what we do here at the SwordBuyersGuide, inform and educate the un-educated, when they're willing to listen...
I still don't trust Ebay or Chinese direct vendors.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 30, 2014 16:57:05 GMT
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Dec 30, 2014 17:22:42 GMT
I agree with many of the posts and points made in this and the other thread, good topics and discussions While it seems some people might think some of these ebay katana sellers really care and sit up at night thinking how they can make your $150 katana even better for you because they are just so passionate about swords and selling treasures, some others might think that everything sold on ebay is junk and they're all out to scam you. I think there is a middle ground. I believe there are some good swords to be had and some sellers that are honest enough. I don't find any one of them to be completely honest in every line of their advertising or sell a product that is 100% flaw free(who really does?) but if your expectations are reasonable and you weed out the total hacks, you can still benefit by buying from China directly. I don't know anywhere else I could have gotten my custom blades made for the money I spent. Honestly, some of the blades being produced by a few of the ebay guys are creeping up on Hanwei in quality and have already surpassed other companies like Cheness and Musashi and Munetoshi, imho. Throw on some decent fittings and make a decent saya and there would not be much more you could ask for, for the price point. I feel there is value to be had if you know where to go, know what to ask for and how to ask for it, and have realistic expectations. Just like any other manufacturer and seller, it's also important to know who is better to avoid. Huawei, yes, I'd still buy from them, Ryansword, no, not while there are still better choices. Katana1980 may have made some people happy and perhaps some of those just don't know enough about what they got to realize it wasn't as good as they thought but this is one more seller I will avoid because the risk vs reward is just too great for my tastes. Buying swords from ebay might always carry more risk than other vendors but while I can still get something from them I can't get anywhere else, I'm willing to take an educated and reduced risk chance. -Josh
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 30, 2014 20:06:37 GMT
Hi Josh, Good points. Let's face it....genuine nihonto are out of most of our price ranges.
I bought my kotos, gendaitos and Shinshintos back when I was single and only had myself to spend my money on and did not have to get the wife's ok for purchases.
But in my search for the perfect nihonto, I never did find the perfect nihonto. All my nihontos had good this but there was always some small gotcha that my detail-obsessive nature did not care for. And that was back in the days when a decent gendaito ran $300 to $500usa. And my nice koto of a Akihiro forgery was only $2,500usa. And I had a very nice Chicashige (misspelling but I forget the correct spelling) for $1,200usa. Think it was a Shinto, but not positive.
Now?
Now I look at gendaitos on Ebay and even the junker gendaitos are out of my budget...and I have had or handled enough nihontos to have learned not to buy a used, antique sword by mail. Spending nihonto katana type of money, see and handle it in person.
We have seen folks pay thousand$$$ of dollars for a gendaito or showato, etc that they later put up for re-sale because, for them, the feel was not right. Too heavy. Too light. Too something.
I only have seen one WWII era gendaito that made my heart pound. A really nice blade but my (drat!) honesty streak, as usual, surfaced and I told the owner how nice it was so he chose not to sell it. Sigh...but then I have found money-filled wallets and purses and always seek out the owner and return w/o reward. (character defect I suppose in today's world).
With Longquan swords, we ordinary folks, have opportunity to buy a usuable sword at reasonable prices. The problem still is the danger of buying sight unseen. And returning a sword for refund to far away China is not cheap. But domestic swordsmiths are also too expensive for us ordinary folks. Happily there are some folks like Josh and (Slavworks?) who import Chinese blades/swords and have done work to insure quality issues are resolved pre-sale and we should be grateful to them.
But any Company depends on its workers. Quality issues can pop up or be eliminated, at any outfit. Get a new worker who is a top level swordsmith...and better swords are soon to be had there. A Company loses the top swordsmith and ...well, watch out.
BTW, it is one thing to want to make a blade that matches the neat and tidy cross-section diagram. It is another thing to actually forge a blade that matches the idealized drawing. Such as the actual pic in Dig's piece.
One of the motivators Mantetsu had, to produce their excellent WWII era Koa Isshin "lower carbon rod inside higher carbon pipe" blades was their nihonto research which found all too often, ninhonto blades did not have the core steel in the right part of the blade interior. Common for the core steel to be off center, left or right, up or down. There were also too many instances of nihonto blades incorrectly tempered and breaking (or bending) when they should have not. So the issue of correct tempering is not confined to current production blades.
While I confess I favor folded because folded steel is prettier (to me), I would suggest staying with mono steel blades unless one really knows the sword seller...and even that is not fool proof as swordsmiths in Chinese sword factories, can and do come and go. Job hopping is hardly just an American phenomena.
Anyway, if I learn more, I'll report back. Our interest here at SBG is to seek what is, and be an informational service to our members and guests.
Minimize bias. Maximize objectivity.
Unfair to praise a seller who used to have good stuff but no longer. Unfair to dump on a seller who used to have poor stuff but has improved. And for that, my compliments to Digs for fact finding and presenting facts for the SBG community. Not just opinions.
RinC
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Dec 30, 2014 22:20:34 GMT
Unfair to praise a seller who used to have good stuff but no longer. Unfair to dump on a seller who used to have poor stuff but has improved. And for that, my compliments to Digs for fact finding and presenting facts for the SBG community. Not just opinions. RinC RinC, it seems you are really fond of this company so I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking them or you but I think you're missing the point here. The main issue, as I see it, is that Tony (or whatever the seller's name is) has knowingly sold an item advertised to be sanmai lamination, and has even confirmed it to the buyer, and it was then discovered that it was not what it was said to be. It has nothing to do with who works there now or in the past. Katana1980 is selling products that are falsely advertised. Not just exaggerated such as "can chop tree" or slightly different looking color of ito but flat out false. It makes no difference to me and many others who is making these "faked" swords but that they are being sold at all. While there might always be a risk when buying through the ebay katana sellers, we can try to avoid those that have been proven to lie and cheat us out of our money. This is my opinion and I wouldn't personally spend a dime with them, others can do what they like. -Josh
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Dec 31, 2014 1:34:43 GMT
Swordmaker688/Hanbon shows sanmai as such - these are listed as 1095 steel + Folded steel I don't own one but have handled one and examined one closely. These are $600+ and while I dont have a hardness tester I can say the Ha is very hard.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 31, 2014 14:04:29 GMT
Chop test - Can it chop iron?I don't have iron nails so I used a 8p stainless steel nail (generally stainless is harder than iron), a piece of particle board (to hold the nail in place and prevent the pieces from flying into my face), and the bottom half of the 100% 1095 damascus katana. I started shaping the kissaki and the blade is now a two handed waki. I first tested the strength of the tang with a few chops and it held up well. Nail in the board The blade cut then sheered the nail with a tiny bit of edge roll. The whitish mark is just a scuff mark. Sorry for the blurry pics but it was hard to get a close-up. Practically no edge damage. Speak now if you think I should do more tests
Today I will be making a habaki out of a thick wall aluminum pipe (non-traditional). 6061-T6 is a very strong aluminum alloy (softer than brass but harder than copper). It's also very light weight and cheap.
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 31, 2014 17:40:05 GMT
Hi Josh, You are right as usual. I have gotten to know Tony of Katana1980 over the course of several sword transactions and like him. I like Tony. I like Jacky of Huawei (btw, he has an absolutely adorable baby boy now!). And there used to be a lady customer rep at Wang-katana2011 who was the sweetest lady I have ever dealt with. That said, my above reference of "Unfair to praise a seller who used to have good stuff but no longer." was referring to Katana1980. Tony lost his best swordsmiths. I like Tony but right now, I would not recommend him until he gets a full time q.c. guy who carefully inspects every sword before it goes out. Tony's current swordsmiths are competent to do mono steel blades only IMO. ---- I am urging Tony to get a q.c. inspector. I really do not see any good alternative if he wants to solve his q.c. problems. ----- And Tony was indeed caught by surprise that the blades of his last batch order were all folded and not sanmai. The price of buying from others instead of making your own, where you can be sure of what they are. He was not lying. And he will refund Digs money. And apologize, I am sure.
As he did apologize to me.
Robert
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Dec 31, 2014 18:38:54 GMT
Hi Josh, You are right as usual. I have gotten to know Tony of Katana1980 over the course of several sword transactions and like him. I like Tony. I like Jacky of Huawei (btw, he has an absolutely adorable baby boy now!). And there used to be a lady customer rep at Wang-katana2011 who was the sweetest lady I have ever dealt with. That said, my above reference of "Unfair to praise a seller who used to have good stuff but no longer." was referring to Katana1980. Tony lost his best swordsmiths. I like Tony but right now, I would not recommend him until he gets a full time q.c. guy who carefully inspects every sword before it goes out. Tony's current swordsmiths are competent to do mono steel blades only IMO. ---- I am urging Tony to get a q.c. inspector. I really do not see any good alternative if he wants to solve his q.c. problems.----- And Tony was indeed caught by surprise that the blades of his last batch order were all folded and not sanmai. The price of buying from others instead of making your own, where you can be sure of what they are. He was not lying. And he will refund Digs money. And apologize, I am sure. As he did apologize to me. Robert Robert, I would type lol here but too often the author does not actually laugh out loud. In this case I truly did so I will type "Laughed out loud". I do thank you for this as laughing is healthy and everyone should do it more often. During this thread and while reading your comments, I am reminded of this quote: "The difference between perseverance and obstinacy is that one comes from a strong will, and the other from a strong won't." ~Henry Ward Beecher Rather than continue a debate that I believe cannot easily be concluded without more proof, I will applaud you for your obstinance and perseverance and committing so fully to an ebay sword vendor. I honestly say this with total respect my friend. I also realized that I may very well be the one pushing too hard without solid backing so until one can prove that "Tony" was not just caught in a lie but rather an innocent victim of poor advisers and circumstances, I will let this one go. I still choose not to buy anything from him or katana1980 and feel there is no great loss there. Dig's, I appreciate your further testing of seller claims but do we even know if that sword is made of 1095 folded steel? I was under the impression that a mono steel that is folded by itself would not show patterns like this sword does. I have read that two different steel types are needed to achieve that appearance. I am curious and would appreciate if anyone could shed some light on this. -Josh
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
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Post by Greg E on Dec 31, 2014 18:49:38 GMT
Good information. Narrows down the number of eBay sellers to deal with. Huawei and Hanbon are my go to sellers now. I am thinking of trying St-nihonto. I appreciate the effort made for the rest of us.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 31, 2014 19:52:08 GMT
... Dig's, I appreciate your further testing of seller claims but do we even know if that sword is made of 1095 folded steel? I was under the impression that a mono steel that is folded by itself would not show patterns like this sword does. I have read that two different steel types are needed to achieve that appearance. I am curious and would appreciate if anyone could shed some light on this. -Josh I don't know if the steel is 1095 or some other high performing steel. It's a sure bet it's not a 1045 because you're not going to get a Rc of +60 and an edge that doesn't chip chopping nails. But it could be 1060 (doubt it if it's mixed with other inferior steel), 1075 or better, or T10, etc. I contacted a blacksmith from the US who told me that folded 1095 does NOT look like damascus. He also said that it does not look like tamahagane. He said it has an appearance of forged wrought iron. Sometime next year he's going to be sending me sanmai blade blanks; damascus jacket & folded 1095 core and wrought iron jacket & unfolded 1095 core. I promise to add pics to my sanmai thread as soon as I get them.
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 1, 2015 16:37:15 GMT
Hi Josh, Anytime I can add some humor to the day, I feel I have contributed :-) And am glad to have made you smile. Ah, Josh so young and yet so skeptical. Sad. Does this mean you are not going to buy the vacation property off the coast of Florida I was going to sell you? :-) But was Tony lying and cheating? Or cheated by another blade vendor? In this case, it was the latter, not the former.
If I did not know the guy so well, I would also think the former. Chinese come in all flavors of integrity you know.
Speaking of which, a Chinese joke: (phone conversation) Customer: Do you have Dim Sum? Chinese restaurant: Well, he sure is not too bright. (laff...I make funny)
(phone conversation) Customer: Do you have Kung Pow Chicken? Chinses restaurant: I go check. MEOW!!! Yes, we do.
Robert
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 21:03:12 GMT
So this wasn't even clay tempered either?
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 4, 2015 16:24:56 GMT
Nope....was a TH, not a DH.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2015 20:15:50 GMT
Lol! Well what did you expect then with a fake hamon polished onto the blade?
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 5, 2015 18:05:51 GMT
If a Katana1980 blade is DH, it says so.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jan 5, 2015 18:44:24 GMT
So this wasn't even clay tempered either? Clay tempering is not always needed, and with some steels it's better without it. Jan 4, 2015 15:15:50 GMT -5 Neo_one said:
Lol! Well what did you expect then with a fake hamon polished onto the blade?
Pointless comment! The fake hamon was done for decorative purposes. Some like it and some don't. Tony didn't claim the hamon was real so no issue there. And a fake hamon has no relevance to the quality of the steel. The sword was purchased to prove a point. That Katana1980 is a fraud! I created a thread to educate folks so they could tell the difference between a laminated (hon-sanmai, sanmai, wariha tetsu, etc.) blade from a faked one. I used my experience with a sword Tony claimed that the unfolded hard core steel would be exposed, and that there would be a visible lamination line showing the dividing line between the core steel and the damascus jacket, but all he sold me was a polished 100% damascus blade. I made a claim that Tony still sells fake laminated blades and it was said that the blade needs to be cut in half to be 100% sure. My response was no, it actually does not need to be cut in half if the seller claims that the core would be exposed and a lamination line would be present. Anyway I made the claim so I followed through with it. I immediately bought a sanmai blade from Tony, cut it in half and the blade again is 100% damascus. In addition the "real silk" ito was synthetic and the "iron" tsuba was non-magnetic stainless steel. The finding was unchallengeable, so Tony returned my money and sent me two very apologetic emails. He claimed in the email that he was going to " I (Tony) am going to check all my (ebay) listings tomorrow and take down the questionable ones immediately" and also " make adjustments in my (Tony's ebay) posts and make all descriptions as accurate as possible. ". He admitted that his sanmai swords are not sanmai. Tony also stated " To be honest I didn't believe your claim when I first saw your review, but I did my own test and cut two of these in half, and was shocked to discover they are in fact folded mono blade, not sanmai. " Yet after 5 days he still has the the same listings running on ebay. And if anyone challenges my findings or defends Tony then I'm going to buy another sword from Katana1980 again and make a fool out of you.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Jan 5, 2015 19:12:37 GMT
And if anyone challenges my findings or defends Tony then I'm going to buy another sword from Katana1980 again and make a fool out of you. I'm all for exposing the truth to consumers and I really appreciate your efforts in this case but I can't help but think there might be something foolish in continuing to buy from one you yourself have exposed to be a fraud. I would also think they shouldn't have to refund your money the next time -Josh
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jan 5, 2015 19:16:36 GMT
You're right. Thank you Josh for that because I really don't want to.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 6:01:34 GMT
I disagree that a clay temper doesn't change the quality of the steel as when done correctly you are changing the properties again of the steel. If they apparently went through the effort of making a complex laminated blade yet they stick on a fake hamon, that doesn't make sense to me and I would call bull from a mile away.
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