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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:41:21 GMT
As a continuation of the previous thread Faked Hon-sanmai / Sanmai Blade from Katana1980 (Pic heavy) sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/42599/A few points were made that I would like to address first: 1) The seller was offering on eBay swords he claimed had a visible unfolded 1095 steel core at and above the cutting edge. This 1095 unfolded steel was not visible anywhere on the 4 blades he offered me (2 katanas and 2 tantos). Tony and I discussed where is the "unfolded 1095 steel core" and Tony never made a claim that the 1095 was folded, in fact he specifically spoke about "unfolded 1095 steel core". 2) A poor quality photo of a cross-section cut of what might have been a historical sword appears as if the soft outer steel envelopes the entire outer blade including the cutting edge. Obviously anyone thinking that the softer steel would make a great edge does not understand the point of hon-sanmai or sanmai laminated steel. Those folks that understand the purpose of these types of laminated steel construction understand that the photo is a poor example of a hon-sanmai blade. It was the only historical photo I could find and it showed the three different steels used to make hon-sanmai. 3) Another point made was "...neither of you should claim anything as fact until you cut your blades and inspect them from the inside...". Cutting the blade is not necessary when the seller claims that the "unfolded 1095 steel core" is visible, and claims the blade has a visible lamination line between the folded softer steel and the unfolded harder steel. And, unfortunately this would be a destructive test but a nice segue into this review. So here goes... I asked a friend of mine to bid on this sword on ebay. The seller is Tony from Katana1980. During this time Tony only had 3 sanmai blades offered on ebay. Handmade Chinese Han Sword Jian Sanmai Blade *Certified Han Sword* Free Box for $380
Handmade Japanese Folded Steel Sanmai Sword Tiger Tora Katana Full Tang + Bag for $169.99
Japanese Razor Sharp Folded Steel Sanmai Sword Sakura Katana + CUSTOMIZATION for $139.99
My friend bid on the one in the middle for $169.99. eBay item number: 251735632955. Here are a few of the specs posted and two of his pics he put on ebay (you can see the entire post for yourself) You are looking at a traditional Japanese samurai sword, Katana. It has been hand forged, and folded, creating a look similar to the Damascus Steel technique. The layers of folded steel can be easily seen on the blade. Every aspect of the sword has been created authentically. All the fittings and parts are genuine material.
The Shinogi of the blade is 50 HRC while the Yakiba is 62 HRC. This difference in hardness is achieved by using a hard high carbon steel on the Ha (edge of the blade) and a softer medium carbon steel in the core of the blade. This technique is known as the Sanmai Lamination. Please view above picture A
The middle red part of the blade is high carbon AISI 1095 steel.
2 blue layers divided laminated on the 2 sides are folded steel. The folded steel part consists of AISI 1060 steel and it has been mix-fold forged for 13 times. High carbon steel in the middle part of the blade which results in a very sturdy blade and it reaches the cutting standard. 2 blue layer folded steel that keeps the blade's flexibility.
Please view above picture B
The red lines are not tempered line and we call it Sanmai Line. The Sanmai Line is generated by high carbon steel and folded steel mix forging processing. Sanmai Line is high carbon steel and folded steel dividing line. This part of the blade under the Samai Line is carbon steel and above part is folded steel.
Tony allows the buyer to pick the ito, tsuba, and other fittings. So my buddy asked for: 2311 Iron Tsuba 2186 Scarlet Real Silk Cord Pics from Tony's eBay post But the tsuba is actually non-magnetic stainless steel coated in copper then anodized to look like iron. I gently sanded the surface to expose the copper, then sanded a little more to expose the stainless steel. Not iron at all. Not genuine. And the ito melts when burned and gives off a burnt plastic smell like polyester or rayon. Real silk turns to ash when burnt. Not silk at all. Not genuine. And check out the mune-machi and ha-machi of the $100 Musashi Best Miyamoto Sword vs. Katana1980's sword.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:45:23 GMT
But let's get onto the point of this thread. Is the blade sanmai? The tsuka was too tight to disassemble. There was a shim inserted to make the wooden core extra tight, the mekugi pegs and fittings had an epoxy-like adhesive which did not allow me to separate the tsuka from the blade. I even put the blade in a vise and with a rubber mallet gently pounded the tsuba but to no avail. Hard pulling of the tsuka while the blade was in the vise didn't work either. You can see the epoxy-like adhesive around the mekugi pegs So I busted up the wooden core. You can see the epoxy-like adhesive in the middle of the tsuba. I took videos of most of the steps I took. I don't have photos of the edge of the sword (video only) because it would not show anything. The sword-maker(s) used a rough abrasive material to frost a fake hamon. This completely obscured any visual proof of a laminated line (sanmai line). So I decided to cut the sword and later polish the two pieces to bring out a lamination line. I cut the katana in an area where I would think a lot of the cutting takes place. This also allows me to make a tanto with the front piece and a short waki with the back piece. Each piece was soaked in FeCl for a long time to bring out a good deep etch of the cross-section. BTW: I could not make a hole in the front piece so that I could suspend the piece in the jug. So I just dropped the whole piece in and fished it out when I was done etching. More about that later. After removing the FeCl soot like oxides from the surface of the cross-section I took close-up pics. 100% damascus! No sanmai lamination!
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:48:02 GMT
1 PIC OF SPINE of the front piece (kissaki end)
3 PICS ALONG SIDE A of the front piece (kissaki end)
3 PICS ALONG SIDE B of the front piece (kissaki end)
I can provide more pics on request
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:49:06 GMT
After examining the inside of the blade I asked my buddy to email Tony: .
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:50:30 GMT
Now for the positives!
The ray skin samekawa is real ray skin!
The wood used to make the saya is very similar to African wenge. Many ebay katana sellers called it "Hualee wood (rose wood)". I did a google search on Hualee wood and couldn't find much about it. Anyway, the African wenge wood is a beautiful wood and I've seen it used for knife scales. Personally, I love wenge and I'm very happy about the saya.
On to the hardness of the blade. Tony claims in his eBay post:
The Shinogi of the blade is 50 HRC while the Yakiba is 62 HRC.
(No pics, video only) I tried to use a hardened steel drill bit to make a hole to hang/suspend the front piece of the katana in the FeCl solution. The drill bit did not go through the blade above the shinogi. Then I used a carbide-tip bit, one specifically made for drilling holes in harden steel. Again it did not go through. It's not the best test to measure the blade's hardness but I suspect that the entire blade is 100% 1095 damascus and hardened to 61 or more. I made this assumption from my experience with pre-HT and post-HT steels (After HT: S7 and 440C in the range of 58-59 Rc, AEB-L and 3V and O1 in the range of 60-61 Rc, and various type of damascus in the range of 56-59 Rc). Why is this positive? Because I suspect that my two pieces will make a fine tanto and waki; thoroughly heat treated to over 60 Rc.
On the other hand, the hardness of the sword is not what Tony claims. Tony is under the assumption that the shinogi of the sword is 50 HRC because its skin (the bread) is folded 1060 soft steel; and that the Yakiba of the blade is 62 HRC because it's pure 1095 hard steel. If Tony was correct then either drill bit would have cut through the skin (folded 1060) and stopped at the 1095 core middle layer. But I couldn't even drill through the surface of the blade.
In conclusion: The blade is nothing as advertised.
The 'BS' of misleading customers continues.
I'm willing to send any of the pieces from this katana to any forum member for their inspection; but to only those folks that I believe has an equal or better understanding of laminated steel than me. And understanding that I want the pieces back so that I can make a tanto and waki for sale. I plan to purchase additional items from eBay and perform destructive tests like this. I would be extremely appreciative of anyone willing to support me in purchasing items for destructive tests.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Dec 29, 2014 14:58:36 GMT
Thanks for the post - deceptive sellers/products like these should be pointed out (pun intended) so that potential buyers won't get suckered into buying things that aren't as advertised.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 15:08:00 GMT
Thanks for the post - deceptive sellers/products like these should be pointed out (pun intended) so that potential buyers won't get suckered into buying things that aren't as advertized. Exactly! I hope that posts like this will keep the sword-makers and sword-sellers HONEST! BTW: I'm not going to single-out any one in particular. I'm currently working on a different ebay seller. So there is more to come.
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 29, 2014 18:22:23 GMT
Digs, I agree, this blade looks to be a non-DH, fully folded blade, not sanmai. I also see a problem in the description of softer core steel, which does not describe a sanmai. I will see if I can find out more info from Katana1980 on this sword. But you did good work on this one. RinC
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Post by Krelian on Dec 29, 2014 18:26:48 GMT
Very generous of you to go through all this to share the truth of the matter with us! Looks to me like you did an excellent job of testing. I eagerly look forward to the results on all the blades you test! Personally, I suspect the majority of these eBay sellers are just using terms like "sanmai" as an attention getting buzzword like "battle ready" or good old "can chop iron". The sad part is that sanmai of course DOES have a meaning but since cutting through the blade like you did is the only way to prove it, they probably count on no one ever checking...
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 18:56:20 GMT
Very generous of you to go through all this to share the truth of the matter with us! Looks to me like you did an excellent job of testing. I eagerly look forward to the results on all the blades you test! Personally, I suspect the majority of these eBay sellers are just using terms like "sanmai" as an attention getting buzzword like "battle ready" or good old "can chop iron". The sad part is that sanmai of course DOES have a meaning but since cutting through the blade like you did is the only way to prove it, they probably count on no one ever checking... Thanks Krelian. I never saw "can chop iron" but I have seen "can chop tree". It's unfortunate that there are a few individuals creating a bad reputation for the rest of their "people" or country. How much do you want to bet that Tony will claim that the wrong sword was shipped to me (or some BS excuse), and claim that all I had to do was return it if I wasn't happy. Like you said they don't count on people checking or knowing what to look for. And for those few that do check, well then the sword is replaced with a real one and all is good. The fraud can continue to sell fake swords. My previous experience with Tony (about 2 years ago) ended with me returning the swords; and by the time, I realized he wasn't selling laminated blades I could not give him negative feedback on ebay. So no bad mark for Tony.
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 30, 2014 1:14:51 GMT
Nice pic of the spine too Digs. That spine pic alone, says to me that the blade was not Sanmai. Again, good work on this one. I think you deserve a refund since the blade and the seller description did not match. I sent this thread's link to Katana1980 and when he is back in town (Longquan), I plan to share his response. RinC
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Post by Anankai on Dec 30, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
RinC, did you say that you bought in the past from Katana1980 sanmai or hon-sanmai blades that were truly what they were supposed to be? Is it possible that the forge who supply Tony started cheating him by making simple folded steel blades instead of sanmai construction to get more profit?
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Dec 30, 2014 2:54:09 GMT
Excellent pictures ! and you are proved correct beyond doubt
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 30, 2014 4:37:03 GMT
RinC, did you say that you bought in the past from Katana1980 sanmai or hon-sanmai blades that were truly what they were supposed to be? Is it possible that the forge who supply Tony started cheating him by making simple folded steel blades instead of sanmai construction to get more profit? Selling fake laminated blades continues to be and has been for many years a common practice by many of the sellers on ebay. Tony personally handled my first issue and sent me photos he took of my fake laminated blades. Photograph the high polished ha and claimed it was unfolded 1095 steel core. Here is the pic Tony sent me I zoomed in and enhanced the contrast. Oops, folded steel all the way to the edge.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Dec 30, 2014 4:41:26 GMT
And without a lamination line !
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Dec 30, 2014 12:49:24 GMT
Thanks for taking the effort and going all through this.
But at the same time I don't want to be a semprini but I need to point out that by just seeing those pics I could have said that sword is crap. When you can see from the pics that sword isn't even differentially heat treated then I wouldn't expect lamination for 100$'s. As even though they are advertising 10$ shipping, in reality it's a lot more. For example shipping from China to Finland seems to be around 65$'s, so even with free shipping that is always added to the price. They don't sell these with 0 profit, they make the maximum profit they can get. Which means that when manufactured this sword was very cheap.
That being said the Tony, Jacky, Wang, Jeff etc. are to my understanding only marketing people that handle the English business. So it's no wonder that they do not know the technical stuff about swords, and as their English is usually bit limited communicating with them properly is sometimes pretty hard. I tried to communicate with few of them regarding a custom sword but I don't think they understood what I was after so I wasn't comfortable on going with 500$+ route with them. I've been told by people who have seen the Longquan forge scene inside that most of the actual forges & smiths only understand and speak Chinese.
The marketing people can just make their own crap in English regardless what the original maker was saying to them. The "can chop iron" was used very often by maybe 5-6 years ago. I think Katana1980 was one of the biggest users of that slogan, or Dgspirit, or (insert another name here as they sell same crap with same pictures).
Like I've said before I think it's more beneficial to focus on the overall quality of the sword instead of lamination being used or not...
But all in all it's an interesting test, I'm very surprised that the blade turned out to be so hard as it's actually a counter to my own findings about hardness in Chinese made production swords.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 30, 2014 14:06:49 GMT
Thanks for taking the effort and going all through this. But at the same time I don't want to be a semprini but I need to point out that by just seeing those pics I could have said that sword is crap. When you can see from the pics that sword isn't even differentially heat treated then I wouldn't expect lamination for 100$'s. As even though they are advertising 10$ shipping, in reality it's a lot more. For example shipping from China to Finland seems to be around 65$'s, so even with free shipping that is always added to the price. They don't sell these with 0 profit, they make the maximum profit they can get. Which means that when manufactured this sword was very cheap. That being said the Tony, Jacky, Wang, Jeff etc. are to my understanding only marketing people that handle the English business. So it's no wonder that they do not know the technical stuff about swords, and as their English is usually bit limited communicating with them properly is sometimes pretty hard. I tried to communicate with few of them regarding a custom sword but I don't think they understood what I was after so I wasn't comfortable on going with 500$+ route with them. I've been told by people who have seen the Longquan forge scene inside that most of the actual forges & smiths only understand and speak Chinese. The marketing people can just make their own crap in English regardless what the original maker was saying to them. The "can chop iron" was used very often by maybe 5-6 years ago. I think Katana1980 was one of the biggest users of that slogan, or Dgspirit, or (insert another name here as they sell same crap with same pictures). Like I've said before I think it's more beneficial to focus on the overall quality of the sword instead of lamination being used or not... But all in all it's an interesting test, I'm very surprised that the blade turned out to be so hard as it's actually a counter to my own findings about hardness in Chinese made production swords. I understand your intentions with this post, and I appreciate you reading and commenting, but the context bothers me a little not to reply. I hope I don’t come off sounding like a jerk. Regarding the price. I don’t care if the sword is posted on an auction site for $1 or $1000. The description of the item must match the actual item being sold. Truth in advertising they say, and that was my focus. In the past I’ve been screwed by ebay sellers selling fake fossils. Fossils being another of my big interests. But since this is not a paleo focused forum, I will discuss swords and knives. Specifically what I’m interested in which is laminated blades. About the ebay sellers. I think you are taking the worse of their “abilities” and combing them and generalizing them across all sellers. I don’t know of Jacky, Wang, Jeff, or etc. But I have done quite a bit of emailing with Tony. Tony’s ability to communicate in English is probably as good as mine (I’m embarrassed to say). And Tony has a very good understanding of blade lamination. So before I placed a bid on the hon-sanmai blades, some +2 years ago, I contacted Tony to get confirmation of what I wanted and what he was selling. So I did my “due diligence” and felt confident that I was going to receive what was advertised. The hon-sanmai set was $450 at the time. Do people realize that hardened steel, like this sword at Rc over 60, can chop softer metals like brass, copper, aluminum, and iron? Perhaps with little damage to the edge. Maybe I should test it out. My focus lately has been on discussing laminated blade types. Other SBG forum members could do their own reviews of overall product quality or performance if they wish. But I will post what I’m interested in and what I feel I have some expertise. Regarding the hardness of the blade, yeah, I was surprised too. The blades can be hardened to a high Rc and not tempered down to the correct RC making the blade brittle. I’m going to have to do a little chop test (with iron nails?) to see if the edge holds up or chips before I finish the blades for sale.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Dec 30, 2014 15:44:44 GMT
I agree with you Digs, and I had a feeling my post will have negative influence. I've noticed that I rarely comment to Japanese style sword reviews or threads anymore as I don't often have positive stuff to say about them... :( You are correct that marketing should be correct regardless of the item being sold. The reason I will not buy from these eBay stores is they have very questionable business ethics. They lie in their ads, they steal pictures from other sources etc. Truth in advertising is something we seek but in eBay it's better to take caution. For example here someone seems to be reselling a sword made by Katana1980 or similar manufacturer: www.ebay.com/itm/Sanmai-Nihonto-Katana-Handmade-HC-1060-Damascus1095-Sensei-Tiger-Rosewood-Saya-/221646429708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339b281e0cShould we blame him for the incorrect description or the ones who sold it to him with incorrect description? I've had swords by some eBay vendors that I've bought second hand. For example St-sword/St-nihonto makes decent stuff but I would never buy directly from them because how they do business. Same thing with ArtsFeng, Ronin & lots of other companies. Once you get on my personal blacklist it will be very hard to get off it. :) You can see that people have varying opinions on various brands here. Robert has had good experinces with Katana1980, while most of the stuff I've read and seen about them in last 10 years has been almost very negative. So I wasn't surprised by the outcome of your review as it was pretty much what I expected it to be. Huge respect goes out to you for doing this test and actually chopping the sword. Hopefully it helps more people to realize what to expect when buying these. It's nice to see that you are so interested in laminations as unfortunately that is not that much covered in books & collectors of Japanese swords. I've tried to create a discussion about it few times but it haven't sparked any interest. It's obvious from the information you posted that they lied. Shady seller with another shady sale. Unfortunately most of the eBay buyers probably never visit SBG or other sword forums or read any reviews about the items...
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 30, 2014 16:13:37 GMT
Ok, here is what I have so far found out re. the "sanmai" of Digs. ---- Katana1980, a smaller sword business, used to have swordsmiths of higher skill level. Back when Digs got his hon-sanmai swords, there was one smith good enough to make hon-sanmai. A bigger outfit offered him more mone and so the hon-sanmai smith left. Which ended Katana1980's hon-sanmai ability. ---- Digs got hon-sanmai's but where the skin steel covered the core steel...which led Digs to unable to conclude that they were just 100 percent folded or actual hon-sanmai. ----- And some months back, Katana1980 also lost his most skilled remaining swordsmith. The Sanmai specialist. Currently, Katana1980's remaining swordsmiths are skilled enough for mono steel blades, but not for sanmai. Their current sanmai blade making ability is such that for every two sanmai blades they make, one did not come out right so a 50% failure rate. But Katana1980 still had to pay the smiths for the time and effort and materials, successful or not. Which cost Katana1980 money when the remaining smiths could have been doing successful mono steel blades instead. ---- So to save time and money, Katana1980 sub-contracted his sanmai blades out....recently bought a batch of 120 blades from another Longquan, China sword factory. The other sword factory's blades that they provided Katana1980 were not as described. Tony of Katana1980 went to inspect after I passed on Dig's analysis. Tony cut two blades himself and found they were not sanmai either. And will deal appropriately with the other sword factory. And is inspecting all his own swords with blades from that other sword factory to pull them off his sales site (will probably be all his sanmai line). ----- Tony was shocked and apologetic and thanks Digs for his analysis. I recommended he refund the purchase price to Digs. I also criticized to Tony the IMO crude grind job on the nakago....poorly done. If I find out more, I will post about it. That is what I know so far. IMO, until Katana1980 gets a handle on this, I would go with Katana1980 mono stuff, but not Sanmai. His current swordsmiths are mono steel guys, not sanmai qualified. IMO. ----- Yes, my two Katana1980 Sanmais were true sanmai that I could tell without destructive testing because the mono T10 core steel was exposed in places along the ha (edge). But that was before Katana1980's most skilled remaining swordsmith got hired away by the bigger outfit. I can not currently recommended a Katana1980 sanmai and we owe Digs a thanks for his fact finding. RinC
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 30, 2014 16:41:45 GMT
"Digs got hon-sanmai's but where the skin steel covered the core steel...which led Digs to unable to conclude that they were just 100 percent folded or actual hon-sanmai."This statement or excuse which you have been recently using is aggravating me. You only started saying this after I posted a poor quality and bad representation of a cross-section cut of a purportedly historical hon-sanmai sword. The photo was used to display the softer and even softer core steels used in the lamination. If you believe that hon-sanmai means the skin steel covers the core steel then you don't have an understanding of hon-sanmai. So let's agree that my opinion of hon-sanmai means nothing to you as your opinion means nothing to me. So let's go solely on Tony's opinion and description of hon-sanmai. This is what he advertised as hon-sanmai. This is his claim on the ebay post over 2 years ago. This is a picture from Tony's ebay post which I incorporated into my YouTube vid, and it's shown at 8:37 into the vid. In addition, Tony and I discussed that there was no unfolded 1095 high carbon steel exposed on the cutting edge. In response to this, Tony and/or his sword-makers enhanced the polish at the ha to fake an "exposed 1095 on the cutting edge". So with that... Robert...let it go. Move on. Digs
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