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Post by Robert in California on Nov 27, 2014 23:44:44 GMT
Here is a good affordable (Chinese) Sanmai knife. www.ebay.com/itm/Handmade-Forged ... 27f1b05a23 I have 3 of them. 2 well done. 1 with too much of the mono core steel exposed on one side. There are other Sanmai swords on Ebay. Hard to tell for sure from the pics at times. The Kobuse, such as Wang-katana2011 sold is easier to see the metal divisions. www.ebay.com/itm/Kobuse-samurai- ... 1198283242 RinC
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 28, 2014 0:12:50 GMT
Except they say they use a non traditional method unique to themselves. Objectivity requires an apples to apples comparison. This is impossible because there is no real standard (there's more than one lamination method) and no verifiable k80 sanmai swords in anyone's possession we know of, speaking only of objective parties. There's nothing we cancompare or test. I want to do a collaborative test and cut one open.
For the record, Cheness says:
They go on to say their proprietary method is similar (but therefore not equivalent) to the traditional process.
Oh man. Enough with this for now. I'm gonna eat some pie. Happy Thanksgiving everyone
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 0:39:40 GMT
First linkThe "good affordable (Chinese) Sanmai knife" is being offered at a very good price. This is one I can afford to do a destruction test. I can buy his or offer to buy yours if you want to sell one. And I'll create a new post for laminated steel blades. BTW: The ebay seller is not making any claims of laminated steel or even damascus, so it would't be false advertising if it failed my destructive tests. Second linkMy impression is that the kobuse blade from Wang looks like it's sanmai-ish and not kobuse. Although I can't tell from the pictures alone, there is evidence of a "san-mai" line. In at least 5 of those pictures there is a squiggly line running close to and along the "ha". This squiggly line is what you see when two steels are laminated together as in hon-sanmai, sanmai, shihozume, wariha-tetsu, soshu-kitea, etc. I don't mean the blade was made with only two steels; the squiggly line is the joint between a pair of steel bars. I also thought, maybe it is kobuse and the sword-smith removed too much of the out-jacket (hard steel) and exposed the inner soft steel. But then you would see a much thicker line and maybe more of a 'band' or stripe. The cost of this sword is too much for my pockets to destroy so all I can do at this point is guess.
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Post by Bob B on Nov 28, 2014 1:04:11 GMT
Hey Digs,
Nice thread. It's already been implied in a post here that at this price point expectations should be low, so either way it doesn't really matter. Between what you said and the fact in life that you usually get what you pay for... I've made up my mind. I think what I really want to say is thank you for looking out for the community. It takes a lot of guts to go out and say what you think is honest, stand behind it and go to all the trouble you already have. No matter what, I for one truly appreciate that sentiment.
Bob
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 28, 2014 1:33:33 GMT
This appears to be standard Sanmai construction, hard core and softer outer jacket steel.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 2:31:19 GMT
It does appear to be sanmai, but it's advertised as kobuse. Maybe the seller made a typo when listing, or posted the wrong photos.
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Greg E
Member
little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
Posts: 1,292
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Post by Greg E on Nov 28, 2014 4:09:10 GMT
I have seen blades like this called Gyaku-kobuse, reverse kobuse. Hanbon makes a couple like it.
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 28, 2014 6:00:28 GMT
wang-katana included a very clear illustration and description of kobuse lamination so maybe someone just put the wrong sword in that ad.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 28, 2014 6:53:00 GMT
The Sanmai knife (of which I have 3) actually needs no destructive tests to show it Sanmai, the mono core steel is exposed on all 3 knives and the back of the blade shows clearly the mono 1095 slab between the two folded slabs. As easy to tell is Sanmai as anything I have seen. What I would call "in your face" Sanami. Mine take and good a good edge. Relatively inexpensive, but have become my favorites. RinC
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Post by Aurélien on Nov 28, 2014 11:25:48 GMT
Does someone around here know if a lamination line could be imitated?
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 28, 2014 13:43:22 GMT
.I've created a thread to discuss laminated blades
Laminated Blades - Real vs Fake/post/592648/threadPlease don't comment here unless it's related to the original topic. - Thank you! .
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 28, 2014 15:29:52 GMT
Thank you Digs. RinC p.s.
Another of our SBG Forum members pointed out something significant to me that I missed:
Dig's entire grounds for his "Tony is a liar and a fraud" and his Katana1980 "fake hon-sanmai" sword claims are invalidated by Dig's own initial post. If one looks the the first photograph in Dig's initial post, you will see that Digs presented a cut cross section photograph of an actual Hon-Sanmai blade.
Study that actual Hon-sanmai blade photograph.
You will see that in the actual Hon-sanmai blade photograph, provided by Digs himself, the skin steel completely covers the two inside core steel pieces. The core steel is not showing, just like the Katana1980 Hon-sanmai swords Digs bought and mistakenly thought were not Hon-sanmai.
Thus per Dig's own testimonial evidence, a Hon-sanmai blade does NOT have to show the core steel to be a Hon-sanmai.
And by Dig's own evidence and in view of Katana1980's insistence the swords were actual Hon-sanmai, Digs is in the wrong and owes Katana1980 apology, at the very least. Katana1980 said that back then, they had a very skilled swordsmith who was able to forge actual Hon-sanmai blades. After he left, they no longer could make Hon-sanmai.
RinC
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 14:55:52 GMT
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Post by nddave on Dec 29, 2014 16:34:22 GMT
Ok.... So what I got out of this is OP is upset he didn't get a Sanmai blade for under $100 and RinC is stating you can get a real Sanmai blade for under $100. My question is what are either of you thinking expecting REAL anything for under $100!? This is why I stay away from EBay. This is why I seriously try and stay away from Chinese made blades. The fact that both of you are arguing over if a $45 tanto is really Sanmai or not. I think Josh has a point, break the sucker and see what's inside.
Either way, for $45 I think you're both being ridiculous here. The price tag alone should of told you something OP when you first loaded the site. What's it they say? "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is." Doesn't that go double for Ebay still?? I mean come on RinC, you use Hauwei as evidence in your argument, are Hauwei offering $45 laminated blades? Or are they still in the $300-500 range?
I mean I'm no fan of China or these Chinese forges to say the least. I still have a gut feeling they're idealistic marketing is to "dumb American white boys who watch too much anime". Especially when it comes to Katana. All the junk on the market today is a result of all the poor shmucks wanting to get masterpiece weapons for wall hanger prices. It's just not viable. Hell there was a time 10-20 years ago that wall hangers were going for $100-300 that these production functional swords are going for today.
Bottom line these swords are nothing more than mass produced cheap semi-functional to fully functional swords. They're all made cheaply and with barely any attention to detail from sweat shop slave labor. I do love all the stories about how this or that Ebay sword vendor has found that one "awesome" sword smith who ancestors were "bladesmiths to the emperor" and can make Japanese swords better than Nihonto..... Now it's not even the who hype intro that should get your BS radar up, it's the story of two individuals forming an entrepreneurship in Communist China! But not only one of these but hundreds on EBay! Since when has China supported capitalism? Honestly I think China is ok with this mass katana market because there is no entrepreneurship or capital gain in China they can run these sweatshops and get top dollar or a mass collective of low dollar from all these 1st world collectors like all of us here. All they need is a large factory, some cheap steel, a bus load of metal workers and a half spoken but friendly customer service rep or two and they're set.
Aside from Hauwei who seems to have proved themselves over the years (but more than likely still producing their swords out of sweatshops) I don't get why some of you who still do frequent EBay expect anything more that what has been evident since we all started digging into the truth and inside of Chinese sword making... Most of the time I wouldn't be suprised if in the arguments the forges whomever is bashing or promoting are one in the same with different seller accounts and a different CS agent...
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Post by Robert in California on Dec 29, 2014 17:50:08 GMT
Well, Digs got two Katana1980 swords for about $450 2 or 3 years back. Seller said hon-sanmai. But the skin steel covered the core steel, at least as far as Dig's pics showed. So Digs, based on not seeing the core steel exposed along the edge declared the vendor to be a liar and a fraud. Yet Digs provided a pic of an actual hon-sanmai blade cross section (of a real blade, not the idealized pictorial diagram). And in his own actual blade pic, the skin still also covered the core steel to the edge. Thus managing to prove himself wrong all by himself. Not that Digs has yet to figure that out.
With any sword, forgeries and fakes were common....especially with old nihontos. And with Longquan production swords, is that T10 sword REALLY T10? We have to give some measure of "innocent until proven guilty" to these sellers.
I have had 3 swords from Katana1980, two sanmai and one mono T10. For the sanmai, there were areas of the mono core steel exposed along the edge...clearly not the folded skin steel. True sanmai's.
Sanmai and hon-sanmai, as Digs proves, can have the skin steel covering the core steel and still be sanmai or hon-sanmai.
RinC
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 18:08:53 GMT
Ok.... So what I got out of this is OP is upset he didn't get a Sanmai blade for under $100 and RinC is stating you can get a real Sanmai blade for under $100. My question is what are either of you thinking expecting REAL anything for under $100!? This is why I stay away from EBay. This is why I seriously try and stay away from Chinese made blades. The fact that both of you are arguing over if a $45 tanto is really Sanmai or not. I think Josh has a point, break the sucker and see what's inside. Either way, for $45 I think you're both being ridiculous here. The price tag alone should of told you something OP when you first loaded the site. What's it they say? "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is." Doesn't that go double for Ebay still?? I mean come on RinC, you use Hauwei as evidence in your argument, are Hauwei offering $45 laminated blades? Or are they still in the $300-500 range? I mean I'm no fan of China or these Chinese forges to say the least. I still have a gut feeling they're idealistic marketing is to "dumb American white boys who watch too much anime". Especially when it comes to Katana. All the junk on the market today is a result of all the poor shmucks wanting to get masterpiece weapons for wall hanger prices. It's just not viable. Hell there was a time 10-20 years ago that wall hangers were going for $100-300 that these production functional swords are going for today. Bottom line these swords are nothing more than mass produced cheap semi-functional to fully functional swords. They're all made cheaply and with barely any attention to detail from sweat shop slave labor. I do love all the stories about how this or that Ebay sword vendor has found that one "awesome" sword smith who ancestors were "bladesmiths to the emperor" and can make Japanese swords better than Nihonto..... Now it's not even the who hype intro that should get your BS radar up, it's the story of two individuals forming an entrepreneurship in Communist China! But not only one of these but hundreds on EBay! Since when has China supported capitalism? Honestly I think China is ok with this mass katana market because there is no entrepreneurship or capital gain in China they can run these sweatshops and get top dollar or a mass collective of low dollar from all these 1st world collectors like all of us here. All they need is a large factory, some cheap steel, a bus load of metal workers and a half spoken but friendly customer service rep or two and they're set. Aside from Hauwei who seems to have proved themselves over the years (but more than likely still producing their swords out of sweatshops) I don't get why some of you who still do frequent EBay expect anything more that what has been evident since we all started digging into the truth and inside of Chinese sword making... Most of the time I wouldn't be suprised if in the arguments the forges whomever is bashing or promoting are one in the same with different seller accounts and a different CS agent... "My question is what are either of you thinking expecting REAL anything for under $100!? This is why I stay away from EBay. This is why I seriously try and stay away from Chinese made blades. The fact that both of you are arguing over if a $45 tanto is really Sanmai or not."
The set of swords was $450 not $45 There are well made katanas sold on ebay as sourced from China. "I think Josh has a point, break the sucker and see what's inside. "
Go to this link and see for yourself. I cut the sword in half. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/43002/faked-sanmai-katana-katana1980-lots
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Dec 29, 2014 18:18:46 GMT
Well, Digs got two Katana1980 swords for about $450 2 or 3 years back. Seller said hon-sanmai. But the skin steel covered the core steel, at least as far as Dig's pics showed. So Digs, based on not seeing the core steel exposed along the edge declared the vendor to be a liar and a fraud. Yet Digs provided a pic of an actual hon-sanmai blade cross section (of a real blade, not the idealized pictorial diagram). And in his own actual blade pic, the skin still also covered the core steel to the edge. Thus managing to prove himself wrong all by himself. Not that Digs has yet to figure that out. With any sword, forgeries and fakes were common....especially with old nihontos. And with Longquan production swords, is that T10 sword REALLY T10? We have to give some measure of "innocent until proven guilty" to these sellers. I have had 3 swords from Katana1980, two sanmai and one mono T10. For the sanmai, there were areas of the mono core steel exposed along the edge...clearly not the folded skin steel. True sanmai's. Sanmai and hon-sanmai, as Digs proves, can have the skin steel covering the core steel and still be sanmai or hon-sanmai. RinC You are sooooo wrong! 1) One tanto and one katana received about 2 years ago. 2) The Katana1980 claimed the unfolded 1095 core steel was visible but it was not in either blade. 3) Katana1980's swordmakers polished the ha to make it look like exposed unfolded 1095 core steel, but the damascus still showed through. 4) The photo of the historical blade was a bad example and did not represent what Katana1980 was selling. 5) The photo of the historical blade did not look like Katana1980's sketch of what across-section of hon-sanmai. 6) Only you believe that I proved myself wrong. 7) I just received a sanmai blade from Katana1980 and it too is fake! Send me the laminated sword you got from Kanatan1980 for my inspection. Otherwise, stay out of my posts: you're rude and argumentative.
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Post by nddave on Dec 29, 2014 19:19:42 GMT
I was replying to Aussie-Rabbit's posted price for the Rosewood Tanto you had he posted two prices, $59&$40. Obviously the Tanto was a sub $100 purchase unless Aussie posted another sword.
Either way throughout the years this site has proven the majority of EBay vendors are fraudulent and misleading and should be avoided at your own risk.
My view in it is when you have a known and respected manufacture/vendor and you directly compare an unknown to the know in regards to price and materials used, they should even out or one should be found lacking. For example take a Hanwei Practical and match it to another sword in the same price range.
I think the trouble is everyone us trying to get the best bang for their buck and EBay is the obvious place to find these diamonds in the rough. Who wouldn't want a laminated blade for under $500!? Question is regarding the market is it actually possible when the majority of tried and respected swords of that type are well above $500?
From research done over the years we can see it's not. So why take the risk if the research proves the risk will fail?
All in all there's no real reason to call out this EBay vendor because overall they should just be lost and ignored in the large pool of EBay vendors.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Dec 29, 2014 21:52:18 GMT
All in all there's no real reason to call out this EBay vendor because overall they should just be lost and ignored in the large pool of EBay vendors. I disagree with this statement. I also don't feel these swords need to be compared to any others to validate the op's point. From what I understand, the op bought swords that were advertised as sanmai lamination, among other claims, and what he received turned out to not be what was advertised or confirmed by the seller. I think it's just as important to the average consumer to point out where you did not receive what you paid for, whether the price seemed reasonable or not, than to point out where you got a good deal on a good product. Reviewing "jewels" only is ideal but reviewing everything is realistic. Especially since katana1980 is one of the sellers purchased from by many members here. They are not just one of the many other obscure ebay sword sellers. Thank you Dig's for spending your money and for your time and effort put into your testing and reviews. I for one really appreciate all the trouble you've gone to to help out the rest of us. I also feel a liar and fraud should be called out as such when you can prove it is the truth. Don't lie about your product or sell us inferior products if you don't want to be called out, pretty simple. -Josh
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Post by nddave on Dec 29, 2014 22:50:30 GMT
I disagree with this statement. I also don't feel these swords need to be compared to any others to validate the op's point. From what I understand, the op bought swords that were advertised as sanmai lamination, among other claims, and what he received turned out to not be what was advertised or confirmed by the seller. I think it's just as important to the average consumer to point out where you did not receive what you paid for, whether the price seemed reasonable or not, than to point out where you got a good deal on a good product. Reviewing "jewels" only is ideal but reviewing everything is realistic. Especially since katana1980 is one of the sellers purchased from by many members here. They are not just one of the many other obscure ebay sword sellers. Thank you Dig's for spending your money and for your time and effort put into your testing and reviews. I for one really appreciate all the trouble you've gone to to help out the rest of us. I also feel a liar and fraud should be called out as such when you can prove it is the truth. Don't lie about your product or sell us inferior products if you don't want to be called out, pretty simple. -Josh Eh, maybe its just me but I just don't trust Ebay or any of the Ebay vendors. It was a time here where Ebay as a whole was blacklisted, that is until Hauwei came around and proved there was something worthwhile on EBay. Now everyone is trying to find another Hauwei and unfortunately there really hasn't been My point is why waist the cash and time on 10 different Ebay vendors who are all getting the same swords from the same sweat shop in Lonquan? Maybe I'm just not much of a risk taker but I still say if half or more of the Ebay vendors are shady or crooks then it's still better to stay away rather than try and find that one out of ten you know. Unless that's your goal and what you like to spend your cash on. Personally I prefer to spend my cash on something I know I'll enjoy. If I see hype words or false claims I step aside no matter what I feel might come of it. I think with Ebay there's just too many risks involved in buying swords there. I think most here know better to but they're so entranced in finding the next "hauwei" or whatever that they take the risk. To sum it up I feel it's just better to stay away from Ebay vendors. If they didn't want to be stuck in "the pool" as I mentioned they'd sell from a different outlet.
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