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Post by atrixnet on Nov 26, 2014 21:01:51 GMT
What will be done if the discovery reveals that it does have core steel sandwiched in, but that it was just poorly laminated? Kind of we'd call a hon-san-mai-goodness-me? That's not fake, it's just real bad. You'll be right that it isn't a "true" san mai, but you'll (I say this respectfully) wrong that it was fake. Robert will be right that it was not fake, but (I say this respectfully) wrong that it was "true" san mai, although he didn't make this claim and it was merely implied.
What would be the takeaway? Lessons learned? $200 hon-san-mai is not fake but not real at the same time? Good hon-san-mai costs a lot of money (like that breathtaking collaboration knife those guys made as shown at your hyperlink)? OMG I want that knife sooooooo bad!
I guess I'm wondering if both parties can be right here, and/or if both parties can be wrong. Again-- this is postulated objectively and I'm not taking sides here. And I still want to cut the sword dammit.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Nov 26, 2014 21:02:31 GMT
I would, but I don't have anything to re-etch the blade with to show the layers. And you wouldn't have to re HT the blade. Just keep it cool while you are cutting it. It will take longer, but it'll save you a lot of effort.
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 26, 2014 21:04:26 GMT
I'd love a project like that, assuming the steel is hard enough to keep an edge. Otherwise the tanto wouldn't be good for much more than display. It's reeeeeally annoying to have to sharpen a knife in the field every couple days.
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 26, 2014 21:06:16 GMT
Ummm. Just water cool it and cut it really slowly and not all at once, using the right cut-off blade?
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Nov 26, 2014 21:30:09 GMT
Basically.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 26, 2014 21:39:26 GMT
Let's think about this: 1) I have done all that I could do to prove my first two swords were fake AND the replacement swords were fake. That is 4 swords that where faked. 2) I have shown the attempt at deception. 3) A fraud might realize that he's / she's been exposed and will temporally change their ways. 50% are real and 50% are fake, or stop this activity for now and start again later, or stop all together.
Either way it wouldn't disprove me. It doesn't change what happened. Do you need me to post more pics, I have them!
The best I can do is educate people what laminated steel is. Show examples of what laminated steel should look like. And where possible show how it's faked. There are many posts on this fine forum how hamons are faked. So we should do the same for laminated steel.
And we should all support this sword and knife community by pointing out the good and the bad experiences. That's if we don't want to be only one sided.
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 26, 2014 22:21:50 GMT
If the blade winds up being just folded steel and no lamination, well done or otherwise, I believe in this case Tony would deserve to be called a fraud. The definition is pretty clear and would be applicable in this case. If a sanmai lamination katana is even available for $200, I would expect it to be of the lowest quality possible, the only thing that would shock me is if it were anything more than that. I have no problem buying from sellers like this because I know what to expect. I don't make them out to be something they're not or their products either. I often buy low quality items from different sources and sometimes even broken items but I do know what they are and what risks I'm taking. Let's also just remember that one person or company surely does not represent an entire country or culture.
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 26, 2014 22:33:41 GMT
Well said. I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing a specific country or culture. And I did point out two other "Countries" where I have seen cutlery with "faked" laminated steel.
Let me say that I have seen recent purchases of "sanmai" swords on ebay, for $165 free shipping to the US, which I highly doubt are sanmai. The BS continues.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 26, 2014 23:37:18 GMT
Digs still says fake and fraud. I have had two Sanmai from Katana1980 and still have one. They were both Sanmai. But Digs is saying the Katana1980 Sanmai are fake. Despite having no experience with a Katana1980 Sanmai. Digs experience is with Hon-Sanmai. Not the same thing. And still accuses Katana1980 of making fake Sanmai blades. And has been calling Katana1980 a fraud for years now. And never actually tested his Hon-Sanmai to look for core steel. Not my vendetta, Digs, is yours. Nope. Digs, you pay for a Katana1980 Sanmai, which would be the Musashi model. Let a SBG moderator receive it and do the test. FtheB is knowledgeable, fair and experienced. Ship it to FtheB. You right, I will concede your claim that the Katana1980 Sanmai, which you have no experince with, is not Sanmai and make no further objection. You wrong, you end your vendetta, permanently erase this thread and any and all present and future YouTube videos related to this topic. Put your money up Digs. As you say, this is your crusade vs. Katana1980, based on not Sanmai, but Hon-Sanmai blades. RinC
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 26, 2014 23:58:18 GMT
To everyone:
Sanmai and hon-sanmai are both laminated blades with the common feature that the core steel, or the "meat" in the sandwich is exposed. Do I really need to change my original post and say the laminated steel blades I received was not laminated. Does that make a difference?
Katana1980 might have stopped selling hon-sanmai blades but is still selling in sanmai blades. Or laminated steel blades I have seen ebay items from Katana1980 claiming to be sanmai but don't look like sanmai! The BS continues. People need to be made aware of this.
You cannot remove bad reviews because someone, oddly, got his feelings hurt. Let the truth be known.
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Post by madmandom on Nov 27, 2014 0:09:31 GMT
Not wanting to get involved in this whole argument if it is or isn't, I'd just like to say that katana 1980 has been more than fair and honest in my dealings with them. I personally have ordered over 20 swords some blunt, some sharp, and in different styles and have never had an issue with them if it was unacceptable it was returned and replaced. None of the blades were overly complicated though. And if either claim proves to be correct apologies should be made and/or money refunded.
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 27, 2014 0:21:14 GMT
RinC, do you really know for a fact that your laminated blades from this seller are actually the real deal? I might know a couple of things about production swords but I doubt I could tell for sure if these blades are really laminated without cutting into them or having the steel tested and analyzed. I only know the folded steel I have received from Huawei was a mixture of 1085 and 1095/t-10 because that's what I was told but I wouldn't bet my life on it because honestly, I don't really know for sure. As far as I read, folded steel that has visible patterns has been made from two or more different steel types so I'm confused as to how a core of 1095 only can be folded and have visible patterns.
My kiridashi which is laminated clearly has a different color/tone core down the middle and this core does not have any visible patterns at all. You can clearly see it's a different metal than what was used for the outsides. Looking at it from the side, I can also clearly see where the outer steel ends (near the edge) and the core steel continues.
I'm also wondering why they would go through the trouble of folding steel when they didn't have to. Doesn't this take more time and effort? Why wouldn't they just use mono 1095 or t10 for the core instead of folding more steel? All that work and effort and time for a couple of hundred dollars? IDK, I might be wrong but it just doesn't add up to me.
I'm looking forward to any testing that will shed some light on this debate
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 27, 2014 0:29:11 GMT
Yes Digs, as you say, the BS continues. You get Hon-Sanmai, but did not test if fake or if just poorly made. You did not have any Sanmai. I point to mine. You initially infer fake. Then change your story to "Tony just gave RinC a real Sanmai due to DigsFossils issue, but the rest are all fakes." You ever listen to what you are saying? Let's say you are a businessman, selling whatever. You going to sell fake whatevers but keep one or two real whatevers to trot out if case of complaints? And still call yourself a businessman? And you accuse Katana1980 of BS! Checked a mirror lately? RinC
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 27, 2014 0:34:39 GMT
I will be a gentlemen and let you have the last word. I have nothing more to say.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 27, 2014 0:47:52 GMT
Hi Josh, All your points are valid. Jacky of Huawei told me the two Huawei's (reviews to happen) are folded 1085/T10. These are the Huawei blades described as "high carbon" such as the Huawei $199 waki and the $219 katana...Huawei's version of "budget blades". My two Wang-katana2011 katanas are said (by WangKanata2011) to be mono 1095. Well, they are fur sure mono all right. And tough steels too, judging how the steel feels to fingerstones. But could they be 1060 or 1070 or something else and they are advertising as truthfully as too many politicians speak? Could be. My Katana1980 "T10" is said by Katana1980 to be T10. And it has a slightly different color and feel and acts harder when I hazuya polished it...very hard to bite the steel with the jizuya or hazuya. But could it be other? I am no steel authority, so for sure it could be. When I say it is T10, I am just repeating what the seller told me. Now as for my Katana1980 Sanmai...a Sanmai? Yes, look at my review pics. 1095/T10 instead of 1060/1095? I can not prove it either way. At some point, one has to assume a seller is giving correct information, until proven otherwise. But there is also "innocent until proven guilty". Digs has done a commendable job of proving Katana1980 made/sold him crap Hon-Sanmai. Case closed there and my hat is off to Digs for that. Fake Hon-Sanmai as Digs charges? Or crap Hon-Sanmai which is all that has been proven thus far? I admit to having some bias against Digs after receiving a very hateful, personally insulting email from him, and deleting my posting on his YouTube site when all I was doing was letting him know my Sanmai pics were finally available. Since Digs had requested to see pics of my Sanmai. So after calling me an semprini and idiot without provocation, Digs did not exactly score points with me. RinC
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Post by atrixnet on Nov 27, 2014 1:06:40 GMT
LAST WORD! I called it! And the bird is the word. That is all.
Well no, actually I really want to cut a sword in half. That's what I call destructive testing!
OK. BIRD!
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 27, 2014 1:25:32 GMT
So just to see if anyone can answer my question from before, will mono steel, say 1095, show patterns if folded? If not, I would think that maybe there is a possibility that the sanmai blade from RinC's review might not really be sanmai either. Or at least didn't utilize the same steel types in the same places as the seller claimed.
I also want to add that sometimes not calling out products for what they are can be as harmful, if not more so, to the buying community than some might think. Since this is the friendliest forum, sometimes people don't say what's really on their minds and this can cause harm if we fail to label crap as crap. When we say only, "as long as you like it" or "nice sword, enjoy it" when we know full well that person just bought junk, it allows the next person who might not be as well informed to go and buy the same piece of junk and for that seller to keep selling junk.
I disagree with the purpose of sword reviews here on this forum. At least when it comes to not choosing to make a review for what turned out to be a bad product. I think we should know as much about what not to buy as what to buy. If this katana1980 sanmai blade stuff turns out to be a hoax, I'd appreciate someone calling it out so I don't waste my money. I'm not saying it is or isn't a false claim yet but if it turns out to not be sanmai lamination, it's important to inform those who might be thinking of a purchase, who they should buy from and who might not be telling the truth.
I personally spend hours and hours reading through reviews on Amazon before buying anything (provided there are reviews for the item). I find it just as important to read why someone hates a product as why they might love it. I take all the positive and negative reviews separately and average them out to get a better idea of the truth. Some might just say it sucks because they don't like red, but others give good reasons for their dislike. If anything, negative reviews save me more money than positive ones.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 27, 2014 9:12:32 GMT
As the innkeeper said "time gentleman please" - we are the "friendliest sword forum on the planet" - please don't snipe at each other.
I agree with comments on both sides, sanmei or hon-snamei the core steel should be visible at the edge, otherwise you have a Kobuse or Makun blade.
We all know the advertising blurb - "Razor sharp can cut tree!" - the more complex the blade the greater the cost, I had a sign in my workshop years ago - "Good, Cheap, Quick - pick two"
So no flying insults please, if you wish to throw stones at each other please take it private messages.
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Post by frankthebunny on Nov 27, 2014 17:00:22 GMT
At least until we can get some answers on the subject btw, insults via pm's are also against the rules. just sayin
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 27, 2014 23:21:58 GMT
Here's something interesting from Cheness about their San Mai Higo blades and how you can see the lamination line on it (plus a tip about how to find laminations on other swords) www.chenessinc.com/higo.htm
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