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Post by atrixnet on Aug 31, 2014 22:45:25 GMT
I have poured many hours (weeks) of study into the topic of shinken and I thought I was buying one advertised as T 10 steel with differential hardening using the clay method. After receiving the sword I think I was taken for a ride (deceived). I apologize for this because I imagine you get many posts of this nature. Basically "can you tell if this is a wall hanger". Please forgive me and help me out. I'm really seriously trying to get into collecting and tameshigiri. I have a sensei but no sword (I think). I've taken several photos for your examination. I've inspected the hamon at 30X magnification and I still can't tell if there are nie crystals or not. The fact that the hamon doesn't seem to cross the yokote seems like a dead giveaway. Photos here: imgur.com/a/S4SkfMy next sword will be a paul chen Hanwei practical plus XL which I've read in multiple places is a true shinken (not nihonto) that has been differentially hardened with an authentic hamon. Will be buying from kult of Athena.
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Post by chrisperoni on Aug 31, 2014 23:27:23 GMT
I would say it's a real hamon which has been enhanced by using an etchant. Who makes it or what is the name of the place you bought it from? I don't think you're going to find nie on a sword like this. There are many ways that lower costing katana are given a DH treatment and hamon - one way is to torch the blade edge and that may be what has been done here.
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Post by atrixnet on Aug 31, 2014 23:29:52 GMT
From eBay seller katana1980, who has been selling for many years with mixed reviews on the internet. I appreciate your feedback so much!
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Aug 31, 2014 23:35:43 GMT
Looks like a real hamon to me. you can see the white chrystaline structure in the hamon
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 31, 2014 23:47:17 GMT
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Post by atrixnet on Aug 31, 2014 23:57:19 GMT
the thing that bothers me is that only the monouchi to the kissaki was sharpened. The rest of it might as well be an ito and I don't have the heart to try and sharpen it. The only method I personally have would destroy the geometry, and the only master swordsmith that i can find is not willing to work with wall hangers. this is why I already said that I am getting another katana.
Sadly, as I read elsewhere, you buy your experience as a collector, and this first poor purchase is exactly what I consider that to be. I bought 200 dollars of experience. Not happy about it. the fact that I got it under dishonest terms makes me feel that I cannot trust the sword and I cannot swing it toward a tameshigiri target feeling that I will be safe when I do so.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 1, 2014 0:22:14 GMT
thank you to everyone who has replied and thank you for the helpful links which I will definitely read right now.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 1, 2014 1:09:41 GMT
You can also see the hamon follows through the kissaki in this photo imgur.com/a/S4Skf
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 1, 2014 1:13:54 GMT
Looks reasonably put together, good habaki fit, interesting hamon, I would not be too disappointed if I were you, depending on the $ you paid.
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 1, 2014 1:32:56 GMT
it's not a wallhanger- it's a starter katana, but if you are only going to hang it then might as well learn to sharpen with it
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 1, 2014 1:55:22 GMT
So...Do you think I should take it to the swordsmith I mentioned? I don't want to drive the distance to see him and be turned away. I too have thought it looked like a very authentic hamon, or if not it was a darn good fake. Knowing what I know now makes me wonder if it isn't worth a shot to get it professionally sharpened and preserve the geometry.
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 1, 2014 3:37:40 GMT
Who is the swordsmith? Sharpening a katana? Not trying to knock anyone but most people who sharpen stuff don't know how to do it right for a katana. I suggest you read up a bit round here, or ask about how to sharpen a katana and we can find the links and info for you, and you practice sharpening using this sword to learn how to do it. It's a skill everyone who cuts with swords has to figure out eventually anyway. If you have access to a simple 1"x30" belt sander there's ways to use that, or use sandpaper and do it by hand.
If you don't want to start practicing with your $200 katana (think that's what you spent right?), I would suggest going to a local camping supply store and buying a $10-$25 machete and use that for first practice, then move to the katana.
It's probably not worth spending the money to have it professionally sharpened; real professional sharpening of a katana can and should cost a decent chunk of change, a disproportionate cost compared to the cost of this sword.
Where do you live if I may ask? You might be close to a member here who would be willing to help out - we've got a good bunch here. I am in Windsor Ontario.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 1, 2014 4:45:38 GMT
links! Links appreciated! I have a machete and also a machete/sword that I can use to practice whatever sharpening methods are necessary. Where do I go and what materials are needed?
The sharpener is a business in Plano, TX. despite his claims to the contrary, I'm not 100 percent confident that he can preserve the geometry using his "specialequipment"
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Post by chrisperoni on Sept 1, 2014 5:17:29 GMT
If I was anywhere in Texas I would go to Sonny Suttles of Valiant Armoury in Grapevine, Texas 76051. with any sword questions I ever could have. As for what you need to buy - all can be picked up at an O'Reilly's Auto Parts. High grit sandpaper, oil, block, clamps, ... maybe some other stuff I can't remember right now. Links coming. Edit/add: Sharpen a Sword TutorialThe Updated Sharpening VideoStropping TutorialThe search function on the forum doesn't work so well; I usually just do a google search starting with "sword buyers guide".Works better.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 2, 2014 0:39:39 GMT
I appreciate the reference. I'll look them up and give them a call. They aren't far from me. Thank you for the links as well! All the information you and others have shared is highly valued. You'd think this stuff would come up in a google search, but that just isn't the case.
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Post by nddave on Sept 2, 2014 14:05:40 GMT
Doesn't look too bad especially for something in the $200.00 price range. Not really sure if it's T-10, can't tell steel type from pics but overall it looks like the typical machined DH katana with low grade saya and fittings found in the low price range or Ebay "katana buffet".
Two things you gotta take into consideration before you get upset.
1) you got to understand what's actually doable in the $200 price range. You'd be suprised what another $100-200 can get you in the production market. Mostly it's the little things you don't notice until the sword is in your hands like the fittings, tsuka shape, or saya fit. Others would be the hamon quality, blade profile and most importantly heat treatment. Stuff you also can't notice in seller pics. But if you range your steel types and their quality amongst the various reviews here and on other legitimate sword sites, you will get a better understanding of what to expect. Honestly expecting a quality heat treated T-10 DH blade for around $200 is stretching it pretty far. Had you done the proper research and or had more knowledge of the market during your purchase, you might've caught that.
2) You bought from Ebay. EBay really is a shady and cutthroat market when it comes to Chinese forged katana. You gotta remember that there's hundreds of these Ebay salesmen trying to make a living competing not only with themselves but with the actual market leaders like Hanwei, Musashi, Ronin, and Dynasty Forge. Of course they're going to BS you and over hype their products. High Carbon DH T-10 Traditional Handmade Katana $200 only available here!!! Most of the time though you got to realize IT IS too good to be true regarding Ebay. And in regards to the forges themselves in China, they couldn't care less what you think. If they know anything they know they're selling to a bunch of "dumb western" kids hyped up on ninja swords. As long as "Swordseller_^234^" is buying in bulk they don't care. Who's going to really go out of their way to find that one forge out of thousands in China to try anything? Also in truth you'd be suprised by just how many of these forges are the same one that on one side of the factory pumps out those ugly gold plated BudK katana and the other side forges the 1095 high polished $1000 katana with other types being forged somewhere in the middle. Bottom line don't trust Ebay.
So all in all I think yes you had a learning experience. One part know what to expect for the prices you pay and sometimes that's not even good enough as the sleazier sellers don't mind selling cheap knockoffs for triple their worth with hype words and fake photos. Which jumps right into the second part of watch yourself on Ebay and do your research on both seller and product.
Honestly I think you got a pretty decent sword for $200. I would question the blade regarding quality and heat treatment since it's T-10 at such a low price. But other than that I'd say you got a pretty decent run of the mill $200 katana.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 2, 2014 17:53:09 GMT
Hey thanks for the detailed writeup nddave. Over the last couple months I've slowly started to come to the realization that all the points you've made are true. All these facts add up to the reason I'm going to buy a Paul Chen Hanwei Practical Plus XL Katana - SH6001XPF. I'm going to buy from a reputable seller who is highly recommended here on SBG forums. May I ask what your thoughts are on that katana?
Now as for the katana I do have at this time, I'm exploring what options I have. It was wrapped and fitted with a truly impressive level of exactness. Not a single thing wiggles or is out of place by the slightest degree (I have several tools that I used to measure, including laser sights, laser levels, and good old-fashioned calipers and a speed square). The thing that just really bothers me is the fact that it is not a nihonto. No sharp part except about 4 to 6 inches starting at the kissaki. It's excellent for thrusting, but cutting it is mostly worthless. That just really bothers me.
So I'm contacting some sword experts mentioned here on the forum. I'm going to see what can be done. I know that a true sharpening takes a great deal of time and patience, since the true sharpening runs all the way up to the shinogi. I have also read recently that without any extra expert effort to accentuate the hamon, a true sharpen+polishing it will cause it to disappear almost completely. :cry:
Also with regard to the steel -- this is yet another issue. I want to establish its "authenticity" as well. It's extremely magnetic, but I'm going to do a lemon juice drop test on it in a discreet location (probably on the mune). If it tarnishes after a bit of time, I'll know it's not stainless, and I'll remove the tarnish with my flitz. If I know it's not stainless, I'll be much more confident approaching a sword smith with it.
I've tried to keep this post organized but I'm pretty sleep-deprived at the moment and I need to go to bed. I'll read over your post again and respond a second time if there are any points you made that I should have addressed but missed.
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Post by nddave on Sept 3, 2014 3:17:09 GMT
No problem,
I don't have any personal experience with the PPXL but I did own one of the original Practical Katanas in 2003. It was a pretty decent sword but did have it's flaws like axe handle tsuka, fixed glued tsuka, cheap non-alternating suede ito and a loose fittign saya. Most of these issues were remedied with the Practical Plus line though. One thing to keep in mind about the XL models, they are performance cutters and don't share the same profile as more traditional katana. they are thinner in profile and are primarily meant for extensive cutting of tatami in the dojo or competition. If either of those are your primary focus I'd say go with the XL if not then I'd say just go with the basic Practical Plus model.
Honestly if you are impressed with the fit and finish then I'd say you made it out pretty well for $200 on ebay. To bluntly put it though, you will not ever get a real Nihonto in the production market no matter what jive they're speaking on their website. Even mastersmiths here in the states who have their certification from Japan can't recognize their work here as Nihonto. The only way you'll ever get a actual Nihonto is to either buy one in Japan or purchase an antique from a collector.
All in all aside from the sharpening job I'd say you got a pretty decent katana for $200 especially from Ebay. I wouldn't be too worried about that sword being stainless steel. If they said it was T-10 it more than likely is T-10. The real question is how well was that T-10 tempered at the $200 pricepoint? That aside, ask yourself what you really plan on doing with this katana. Are you going to primarily display it and casually cut? Or are you planning on taking this to the dojo or doing extensive cutting and practical display? If yes to the first question then I think you'll be alright with your present katana but if yes for the second you're probably better off keeping the first as your mantle piece and getting something like the PPXL. Honestly there's this stigma (especially when talking Katana) that every sword needs to be some super steel thats durable enough to cut bricks and stab car doors and all that other BS. Truth is there are many different grades of swords and steels that will probably suite an individuals preferences moreso than anothers. It's all about finding what suits you not trying to keep up with the Jones or whatever.
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Post by madmandom on Sept 3, 2014 6:37:06 GMT
I don't think I could agree anymore with you nddave.
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Post by atrixnet on Sept 3, 2014 14:47:53 GMT
Great tutorials! I'm encouraged because it looks like something I can do myself without too much difficulty. One thing isn't clear to me though on the sharpening tutorials: the number and order of the grits used. It's not really clear the way I'm reading it. It could be I'm just a newb and I just need some translation on what's written? Any insight is appreciated.
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