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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 0:58:31 GMT
"It is just part of being human :lol: "
Stickem, you know what, that is really all it boils down to, you summed it up 7 simple words!
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Post by stickem on Jul 3, 2013 1:57:02 GMT
Yes. Being long-winded is one of my super powers. Another super power I have is no matter which line I choose to stand in at the grocery store, it immediately becomes the slowest moving one :lol: So perhaps tis better to just be consise at times The history of all cultures is written in such a way as to overestimate the goodness and prowess of the people doing the writing. So the Japanese are not unique in this respect regarding samurai and so on. Just being human... but doesn't mean we all have to believe the hype
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Post by Beowulf on Jul 3, 2013 22:14:16 GMT
I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I will not add much because it seems every time I try to add or start something like this I have been vehemently attacked by those with different opinions. However:
The sword, any sword, is a weapon exclusively made for killing people. If you would like to explore all of the elements outside of this singular function or cultivate yourself through a total non-violent approach to it that is fine with me.
But please do not tell me that I am wrong for trying to find out how our ancestors lived. I cannot learn anything by following "modern convention/modern thought". Not using a sword in a way that simulates the purpose of a sword is a modern convention. Your cultivating yourself- so do so, follow that path... I am trying to peer into the ancient world and that requires a totally different approach.
Doing WMA/HEMA I have gone through a surprising amount of inner growth, I feel more peaceful and I am more humble now practising dangerous killing techniques than I was before I started WMA/HEMA. To purposefully hurt someone else when teaching/learning killing techniques is predatory and psychotic. To want to use these killing techniques without justification is predatory and psychotic. But most of these things some people speak of as exclusive benefit to learning and doing a particular art I have experienced doing this, and others have experienced playing tennis or a myriad of other things. If their earnestly serious about it. If they really try and if it is a challenging enough subject/pastime/hobby/art.
...being human... yes! At one time Samurai could retreat. Reading about the War of the Roses you find out about the so-called "chivalry" or dirty fighting/tactics... which by the way just means HORSEMANSHIP when you strip away all the cluttery flowery crap added to it during it's decline and afterwards.
By the way... many cultures/people considered the sword holy. Just look at the inscriptions on a blessed/consecrated crusader sword artifact, a Kris sword's intricasies, Viking swords and their symbology in their literature and history etc etc. I could go on all day.
thank you for this thread, this has been a good read.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 1:01:28 GMT
People shouldn't be attacking you when you voice your opinion!
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Post by Beowulf on Jul 4, 2013 2:56:05 GMT
Well, not they shouldn't but you know how the internet is and not having a conversation in person can make some stuff be taken wrong. I see the point of the "desecrating the sword" but these weapons are older than this sentiment. Let's face it: Samurai killed each other with these. Were they wrong? Where was the outcry? Did the culture top to bottom turn against them for this? Was there at the beginning of the Bushi class (I hope that is right) some decree that they should never use their swords? It is ridiculous.to even think that. As others have pointed out, sure, don't cut with an art blade or an ancient retired/tired blade elevated to art/treasure status. Violence is bad. I think everyone can agree on that on some level. I think I am just not wired to understand.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 7:24:58 GMT
You're right, the samurai killed with their swords, they robbed and murdered people, they acted as thugs for hire and in general operated like organised crime cartels serving warlords and saw their weapons in the same way, as tools to get a (violent) job done. There are recorded historical incidences of them fleeing in combat and even changing sides without a hint of honour where it served their interests. Just like any other people in recorded history.
All the fluff about desecrating swords, codes of honour, etc, is just a bunch of BS the nation of Japan made up in the last 200 years when real samurai were all but gone! The joke is these schools believing this stuff, and even worse, dumb gaijin westerners following this nonsense in their own countries in this day and age. This stuff has about as much foundation in reality and history as Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings". If people want to do silly things and act like fools, guess it's their prerogative.
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Post by Onimusha on Jul 4, 2013 17:35:16 GMT
To give an answer to the original question. Even if you use the sword arts to build discipline by honing your technique, how will you know if you're honing the proper technique if you never try to cut anything?
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 5, 2013 0:15:32 GMT
Just like the samurai's katana, the sword Excalibur wielded by King Arthur has a mythical quality about it in the thousands of legends have been written about him and his knights. As time goes on, the original intent of the legends are almost impossible to understand unless one spends timeless hours researching through historical documents to find "the truth" (if there is a truth to find, that is). The same can be said for the katana... just like many other historical artifacts, the katana has been romanticized by the Japanese (and the rest of the world) to make it into an other worldly object of incredible spiritual powers accorded to it by the spirit of the Samurai who wielded them in times of battle. Because of this romanticization, the katana is now seen as the ultimate edged weapon ever created by man. As others have said, the samurai were sometimes men not unlike those of today. Sure, there were cases of extremely honorable samurai/daimyo, but to say that ALL samurai believed and followed bushi/budo is a load of rubbish. Tameshigiri, as I have been led to understand by my sensei, is an important aspect of Iaido, in that not only does it cultivate the spirit, but also gives the swordsman valuable feedback about how effective their cutting is. Sure, it's under controlled circumstances, instead of in a real sword fight (the closest I can see that happening is like the video that was posted earlier in the thread). I know that I won't be involved in an actual sword fight (99.9% sure - you never can tell with pesky zombies running amok though! :mrgreen: ), but that won't stop me from trying to perfect my art through deliberate training. I'm sure most here, especially those who have posted to this thread agree that tameshigiri is and should be an integral part of ANY sword art as long as the martial intent is there, and adequate training takes place to prevent undue injuries. Thanks for all who've posted and have added their insights into the practice of tameshigiri.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 2:03:51 GMT
LGMartialArts, your sensei is a wise man who understands his art, sound advice from a good teacher!
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 5, 2013 3:11:36 GMT
Well said LG,I agree it should be also.To not do everthing that you can do,within your power,to polish yourself and technique,imo,is disrespecting not only the time and effort of those before us but also ourselves and the sword.No offense meant to anyone,we all study practice for whatever reasons we have,if it makes you happy,cool. I began to study Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu mostly because of the tameshigiri,having started as a BYcutter.I believe I have learned alot,I Know to say I have alot to learn is an understatement. Maybe because of the ryu I study I keep coming back to some lines from one of. Nakamura senseis books."the methods of many iaido and kendo practitioners,ehich are far removed from practical experiences with actual swords and which cannot even cut through bamboo and straw targets,can produce neither a life giving nor a life taking sword" But,everyone has their reasons and beliefs.
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Post by Ulvbane on Jul 5, 2013 3:22:30 GMT
I am an expert marksman. I have never fired a gun, that would be aggressive and bad karma. Rather I just know and trust in myself that I am an expert marksman. Besides, what would shooting at paper show? You are rarely attacked by paper, right?
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Post by Beowulf on Jul 5, 2013 22:02:31 GMT
So, are we seeing Iaido traditions without tameshigiri and those with tameshigiri debating? Isn't there another cutting exercise? I thought tameshigiri was a test for the sword and there is another one where the tatami IS NOT anchored to the cutting stand that is a test of the swordsman? I do not remember the name of it. From doing tameshigiri with western swords I think it is a mistake to assume that the tatami will show you much. The point of tameshigiri to me is the act itself. Most cuts that I botch are my fault, but a few that fail are blameless fails. To me the point is doing footwork and the cut. I just wish the tatami was limitless and free
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Jul 5, 2013 22:26:06 GMT
Actually you can learn quite a bit from cutting tatami with western swords. However it isn't considered 'Tameshigiri' in a traditional sense, more like test cutting. Using the tatami as a tool to evaluate the quality of all the 'dry' drilling and sparring that the practitioner spends the bulk of their time on.
I am certainly not an expert on the history of Tameshigiri and it's place in JSA, but I do know that the modern HEMA/WMA implementation of cutting tatami mats is a different practice. Just one that uses the same targets, as they are the best standard that has been discovered.
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Post by Bluntsword on Jul 12, 2013 2:55:17 GMT
Yes people should practice tameshigiri, I believe it's a essential part of learning how to use a sword.
Most people don't understand how much force is actually needed to cut objects, I've seen big strong blokes fail a cut when cutting tatami omote for the first time (single mat). They had bad edge alignment and not enough tip speed, also by actually cutting something, you learn/realise how much force is required to cut that object. You also learn how to follow through as well.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 28, 2013 17:05:22 GMT
Beowulf said So, are we seeing Iaido traditions without tameshigiri and those with tameshigiri debating?
Oh no not at all sir.You cant debate with someone who makes comments like that. People who say tameshigiri makes no sense because the targets dont move or fight back just dont get it.
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Post by Jamesovich3 on Aug 8, 2013 3:57:07 GMT
I'm sure someone else has stated this by now, but he is a bit contradictorily in saying that the "sword is a piece of art and it would be disrespectful to cut with it" yet later he says "the sword is made to cut." If it was made to cut it would be more disrespectful to not cut with it. Several Smiths have stated that they hate that most of their swords just go in a vault and are never used.
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