|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 1, 2013 13:30:49 GMT
I don't know if I agree with the majority of the arguments stated in the linked page about tameshigiri and why people should NOT do it... imho, there are a couple of valid points, but not enough to stop me from trying to improve my form/cutting skills. What do you all think? Here's the link: www.iaido.org/pages/tameshigiri.html
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 1, 2013 13:34:31 GMT
|
|
|
Post by adamthedrummer on Jul 1, 2013 14:08:42 GMT
Some very interesting points, but I believe at the end of the day its really up to the practitioner to decide if its valid to practice tameshigiri, otherwise how could one tell if they can cut a substantial target??
|
|
|
Post by Google on Jul 1, 2013 14:31:48 GMT
Some I agree, some I don't. Especially the disadvantages- they are the same as low-level iaido and kendo practitioners. The thing I really don't agree with is "the sword is not a tool, and it would disrespect the smith". the smith creates first a weapon, then an art piece. Some don't even go to the art stage and leave it at user level.
|
|
SeanF
Member
Posts: 1,293
|
Post by SeanF on Jul 1, 2013 14:37:30 GMT
Um... a sword is a tool by very definition. Not cutting stuff with antiques, well that is a different matter.
As for using it to validate your technique, well it depends if you are spending your time with the sword as sword play/meditation/dance or as a serious martial art. The onus is on the practitioner of whatever the hell they are doing to be honest with themselves about what it is.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 1, 2013 14:57:08 GMT
I also agree that the modern sword is a tool, sometimes utilitarian, often times not, depending on the manufacturer and/or user. I don't agree with the ego boost argument, at least for myself, since I'm not trying to say "I'm the best" while practicing forms/cuts, although I can see how some would see it in that fashion. Like SeanF stated, you need to be honest with yourself with everything you do, especially if you practice martial arts of any sorts.
|
|
|
Post by Lancelot Chan on Jul 1, 2013 14:58:38 GMT
And you don't need to polish a sword after each use.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 1, 2013 18:09:57 GMT
Yes, I noticed that fallacy too. If you did have to polish the sword every time you used it, the sword in question was probably made out of some very soft materials like copper or bronze, and if made out of steel, was poorly hardened as well.
|
|
|
Post by Judosailor on Jul 1, 2013 20:22:32 GMT
For people that want to study the sword for martial arts, it seems that cutting would be a necessity. No one uses swords in actual combat nowadays, so the closest you can get to learning to use a sword for combat is to combine technique work (kata, drills, etc.) with a variety of sparring and then add test cutting. Without test cutting how will you ever know what it feels like to actually cut something?
|
|
|
Post by stickem on Jul 1, 2013 23:28:15 GMT
Ummm... lemme get this straight... someone says you aren't supposed to cut with a sword...
Ummm... WTF are you supposed to do with it? :roll: :? :lol:
Are you just supposed to draw your sword and hope for the best?
Isn't that a bit like drawing your 6-shooter a thousand times until you are "the fastest gun in the West" without ever bothering to find out whether you can actually shoot straight once it is drawn?
Citing whatever religious or traditional justifications doesn't change the a priori ridiculousness of this statement. It is just the reflection of a narrow mind.
Sigung Bruce said it best (paraphrased), "Learning how to punch and kick in the air is like learning how to swim on dry land. You have to get wet to learn to swim."
My suggestion is if you really want to know what a sword does and how to use it, save the beach mat and take it to a side of beef.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 2, 2013 1:02:47 GMT
You make great points. One of my Aikido instructors, Dr. Clif Norgaard (Kudan - Fugakukai) has the philosophy that while martial arts training builds character, that's not the only reason for it. He has repeatedly told us to "practice with intent, don't practice for the dojo" or else "we're just dancing". My Iaido/Jujitsu/Karate Instructor, Shihan Kunio Miyake has a similar idea, in that we must practice with intent and dedication or else it's also "just a dance". We do some kumitachi in the Iaido class, but it's not the same as actually "fighting" someone who's out to hurt you. I've never had to use any of my training before, and hopefully will never have to, but even though that's the case, I still try to be as deliberate about how I train else its just for show. I just recently began using a shinken for tameshigiri, partly because of my financial situation and partly because I didn't think I was ready for it (just got promoted to Sandan in Iaido). I've been doing martial arts on and off since the early 80's, and believe the arts are a integral part of who I am. The spiritual aspects of the arts, while there, don't detract from the original intent of them - self defense/preservation. If I'm going to practice Iaido, I want to know whether or not my sword will cut when I need it to. I think some of the comments made on the links I provided early on in the original post miss the point of why practitioners of the sword choose to do tameshigiri - not only does it cultivate the spirit (mushin/zanshin), but it also helps develop the ability to use the sword correctly. Cutting the air is not the same as cutting tatami omote or any other targets. I guess that's enough rambling for now from me. Peace!
|
|
|
Post by stickem on Jul 2, 2013 4:10:38 GMT
Yes. There is more than one reason we train. Mind, body, spirit. Moral development, focusing of the mind, our physical health... all of these are good reasons for and benefits of training in the martial arts. However, if we lose the term "martial" then we are just training in "art." We might as well be arranging flowers or doing calligraphy or pouring tea. All of those things are art... but none of them have martial intent. The thing is, when I was young, I started martial arts training for one reason: to learn how to fight. Same reason as most folks. Got picked on at school. Got tired of it. Made some changes. Once I became good at fighting, only later was I able to realize the value of the other benefits of training. Mainly, I realized the "enemy" I face everyday is me. Indeed, the biggest obstacle to overcome everyday is self. Not outside opponents, just me. Training all day every day for an opponent who never comes is a waste of time. Might as well do something else if this is the case. So where is the "enemy" really every day we train? This takes awhile to see and is often lost on the young. It certainly was lost on me :lol: I don't have a problem with any individual who chooses not to fight, spar, do tameshigiri, whatever. Each individual chooses the level he is willing and able to go to. No worries. I have seen people go to levels I am not willing to go to. On the other hand, I have done some things the average person certainly would back down from as well. I have knocked people out and I have been knocked out. I have hit people with a stick full force and have been hit with a stick full force. These sorts of things... higher consciousness through harder contact, and so on. Here is an example of the level we are talking about: While no one is saying a sword = a stick, it is helpful to gauge yourself under circumstances which approximate combat as closely as possible. That is to say, if you really want to know what you will do under these sort of circumstances, then find out. Armchair QBing from the sidelines of a confrontation about " I would do this" and " Sensei would do that" or " My style can beat up your style" is the talk of bozos and children. The air is very forgiving. A dog with a stick is not. What I have a problem with is dogma. I have a problem with someone saying " We can't do x in the martial arts because it is against the rules" for whatever reason(s) tendered. I have a problem with people who say " doing forms is martial arts" implying this is all there is to it. By "forms" here we mean lengthy choreographed routines. Japanese call it kata. Doing forms is not the whole of martial arts. Rather forms simply are a way to pass the movements down from generation to generation such that techniques do not get lost. What I mean is a form is like the words being defined in a dictionary. The dictionary carries the language. However, if you begin reading the dictionary A-Z it doesn't make paragraphs or essays or books. It is just a list of all the words. Forms are like this... To actually write (fight) in language which flows like a conversation, we have to take the techniques out of the context of a form and do them on an unwilling opponent. We have to know the physics of how they work and be able to apply them in the real world. We have to put them in an order which makes sense in the environment. Else they are just like individual words on a page. Else we are just babbling things like aardvark - a mammal with a long nose which eats ants.My suggestion to anyone who doesn't get this point is go try it. Go pick a fight with someone. Once you've poked the bear, then do your form for them. Come back and tell us what happens. Maybe you avoid a fight because the other person thinks you are crazy. Maybe they clock you while you are fighting imaginary opponents in the air... Anyway, forms are optional. There are many perfectly good martial arts we can master without learning a single form. I'll say it again for clarity, there are systems in which you can learn the techniques and pass them down without stringing them together in a long choreographed routine.I have trained in some of them. Sigung Bruce also said, " Boards don't hit back." This is true. Bamboo won't attack your sword on its own without a hand holding it, nor does it move out of the way when you strike. So we see that like practicing a form, practicing on objects - be it a wooden dummy, a wooden board, a piece of bamboo - is not the whole of martial arts either. But this type of practice does give us the confidence to know we have the ability to strike through a solid object. It conditions our muscle, bone, and nervous system for resistance. For instance, I have spent much time banging a telephone pole with my limbs, as well as whacking tires with a stick. This is resistance training rather than air training. The use of objects/resistance is necessary in training if it is actually of martial intent. The real problem with air training is when we go full force in the air, there is nothing to absorb the impact of the blow... nothing but our own joints. The long-term result of going full force in the air is arthritis, knee and hip replacements. I have seen many a sensei in this condition as a result of decades of air training. To go full force, we need a bag, a body, an object other than our own bodies to absorb the impact of the blow. Now, I hope no one has to use their martial training to seriously injure or kill another person. I wish this would never happen again. Unfortunately, human nature is not this way. Maybe one day we will evolve to this point; however, it has not happened yet. There is no single time in human history in which violence amongst human beings was absent. Therefore, I believe that to train with intent means training with the intent to harm others with our movements, yet not with hatred in our hearts. Instead we train with compassion in our hearts. Compassion because we know we do not want to be killed nor injured, so the same can be assumed to be true of our opponent. Our opponent has a life and a family too, same same. In sum, Guro Dan says this: "Love is the highest art. In ancient times, you trained so hard, not for the sake of killing people, but for the love of your family: for the love of your mother, your father, your children, your tribe, and your body. It is the love of life! That is why we train so hard. So we can preserve life!"
|
|
|
Post by jlwilliams on Jul 2, 2013 12:27:47 GMT
I think that the whole thing about the sword being somehow a holey object and you can't cut with it because that is disrespectful to the maker and so on is pure crap. The author of the linked piece seems to be practicing some sort of non-martial 'martial art' and thinking that he follows the path of the samurai, and following it better than the low-brow types who cut stuff with swords. Perhaps they see their katana-dancing as sacred; but the samurai of old would point at them, laugh at them, then beat their arses and take their milk money if those real samurai could be brought through a time machine to see these weenies.
|
|
|
Post by Judosailor on Jul 2, 2013 13:11:43 GMT
That is an attitude that is actually fairly prevalent in unarmed martial arts as well. I can't tell you how many places I've seen (or even trained at) that thought sparring was bad because it "makes you sloppy" or because "our techniques are too deadly for sparring." You even get guys who think things like pad or bag-work are bad because you just need to practice the forms! lol Takes all types, I guess. But to think they are prepared for a real confrontation without sparring and actually hitting stuff seems delusional.
(I should note, I realize that no one is "preparing for a real confrontation" when training the sword. But it is the intent and principle behind it; whether you are actually training for a martial art, or just a cultural/historical dance.)
|
|
|
Post by jlwilliams on Jul 2, 2013 14:06:59 GMT
I know what you mean. I spent quite a few years over-emphasizing kata and encountered a ton of that. Up to a point, I can see how sparring does indeed train in bad habits. Fighting isn't the back and forth rithym that is often seen in a 'match'. Training yourself to trade licks with someone isn't training for violence, which is typically one person putting some work on another. Real fights are seldom 'fights', they are beat downs. Sparring back and forth is often not much more realistic than thinking the master's technique is too deadly for prime time. But I digress. I get that sword training isn't really 'real world' so it's fine to play it any way one likes. I don't begrudge the author of the linked article his trip. I just find the idea of dissing matt cutting as a desecration of the sacred mojo of the blade to be sillier than I can stomach.
I'll go a step further and speculate that the massive flood of dojo grade cutting swords at working stiff prices that has bred legions of back-yard tamishigiri enthusiasts is instrumental in keeping traditional styles alive. Guys get a katana because it's cool (anybody who's seen a movie or two knows that katanas are cool). They set up a stand and cut water bottles and rolled up news papers. They read and surf the web. They either just let it stay there or they take it to another level. I suspect that more people go into formal sword training after buying their first sword than do so before buying and swinging a sword. Granted, that 'backward progression' leads to many injuries. Swords aren't toys (any more than they are sacred spirits) and one should get instruction first; but in the internet era I suspect that my hypothesis is accurate often enough. So, without all this sword desecration going on, the sacred air slicers would be extinct mucho pronto.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Jul 2, 2013 14:58:58 GMT
:lol: that last line made my day.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Jul 2, 2013 15:46:49 GMT
To tell the truth, at the very top level of training I believe there should be only forms, basic techniques (kihon) and sparring in the training. This is after many years when the practitioner have reached sufficient level.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 16:26:21 GMT
That article linked to by those iaido folk is the biggest load of nonsense typical of a lot of the clueless iaido crowd, no offence to serious iaidoka 'who really get what the deal is' but the scene often looks like it's full of (often western) samurai wannabees who are usually elitist tossers that insist nothing less than a $2000 zinc alloy training toy will suffice, while being completely ignorant of Japanese culture, history, philosophy, religion, and most importantly, martial arts.
The ignorance they display in the linked article is phenomenal:
"Firstly, one has to consider that the Japanese sword is not a tool, irrespective of whether the blade is live or not. In Japan, the Japanese sword has held a very important, and sometimes mystical, position in society. It is still one of the 3 treasures of the Imperial family, along with the mirror and orb. Thus, a sword is thought to have sacred properties."
What appalling rubbish, no idea of Japanese history, the sword was always a tool, and a fairly unimportant secondary tool at that for soldiers whose primary weapons were bow (yumi) used in kyudo and spear (yari) in sojutsu.
The cult of the katana was a fabrication by the Japanese government in the time of the Meiji reformation in the late 1800s to give a directionless Japanese populace a sense of identity as they sat in the no man's land between their ancient culture which had disintegrated, and the modern western civilization that was looming at their borders. They looked to fiction in old story books to create the myth of the samurai swordsman and chose the sword as a symbol to create the myth and national identity around.
"Taking this into consideration, the act of using a sword to cut something is akin to someone using a Catholic cross to bash a tree. Furthermore, swordsmiths put their heart and soul into making Japanese swords great works of art. Therefore, using a sword to cut something is a most disrespectful act towards the swordsmith and the sword, which samurai thought of as their soul. (In fact, etiquette towards the sword requires one to treat it with the greatest respect at all times; for example, one shouldn¹t step over it, or touch the blade with one¹s hands.)"
I seriously don't believe that a Japanese person uttered these ignorant words. In Japanese spirituality, there is nothing especially mystical or sacred about the katana itself. People who say that have no idea about they're talking about! In the Shinto religion, the belief is animism, that all things are alive, and have some degree of life essence, spirit or 'ki', the river, the wind, the rain, the trees, the rocks, the mountain and a sword as well, everything does, EVERYTHING IS SACRED!!! When a swordsmith makes a sword, in this belief system some of his ki or essence is imparted into the blade, just as when any person makes anything else, even a clay pot.
The real reason swords are cared for and treated so preciously historically is because they are were a very expensive and rare item traditionally. Japan never had any iron ore and had to resort to using crappy low grade iron bearing sands to refine steel from, and with their tatara (traditional Japanese furnace used for smelting iron and steel), huge amounts of labour and materials would only produce very little usable material. Refined steel was extremely precious in ancient Japan, and the labour involved in then turning it into a sword was long and tedious, the resulting weapon was worth a small fortune, and being prone to rusting easily as traditional Japanese swords were, they were handled very delicately, not touched with fingers, not breathed upon, etc for fear of causing corrosion of the blade.
Trying to compare what is considered sacred in a western monotheistic religion to an eastern animistic religion is nonsensical, and just shows clear ignorance in both areas. Don't want to discuss religion, will leave it at that.
Furthermore, the swordsmiths of Japan aimed to produce swords that would be used, everything in the primitive feudal system of Japan was geared around defending and protecting the territories and property under the control of the daimyo, which is a warlord. In return, the warlord would give the samurai (which means "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility") privilege or rank, status and property for their obedience. It was basically primitive tribal warfare, or, if you will, just groups of thugs fighting each other for control and dominance. All the noble sentiment is fictional BS.
The idea of a samurai’s soul being in his blade is just part of the modern fiction and rubbish that was written after samurai ceased to exist as a class in society. Such ideas, along with the fictional idea of bushido (the code of the samurai – which had no actual historical existence) come from the fictional book Hagakure ("In the Shadow of Leaves") which is supposedly a manual for the samurai classes, written by the supposed “samurai” Yamamoto Tsunetomo approximately one hundred years after the start of the Tokugawa peacetime era when those bearing the title of “samurai” were nothing more than idle bureaucrats and administrators, a class of aristocracy that had no purpose or function in society, other than to sit around and engage in tea ceremony and calligraphy, and that hadn’t seen combat in generations.
When Japan began its process of westernization, it also changed a lot of its martial arts into non-martial forms, which were meant to improve character and serve as systems of cultivation of the self. Thus, the focus shifted from combat effectiveness to emphasize qualities such as discipline, effort, focus, concentration, blended with the later aspect of Japanese religion, Zen Buddhism, to bring ideas of Zen – detachment from the world where the person becomes one with their action, perfectly in the moment, tuning all things out other than what pertains to the current action which one is 100% focused on, etc. Hence Jujitsu became judo, iaijutsu became iaido, and so on. The Japanese had created abstracted systems of self-cultivation that had their origins or roots in martial systems, and to some degree retained some martial aspect, but were no longer complete martial systems in themselves. They didn’t need to be, as the systems were tools only, the end goal was no longer combat-effectiveness (a military goal), it was self-cultivation (a Zen Buddhist goal).
Now, the irony is that we have people at the end of this historical process, these particular iaido practitioners who wrote that horrendous piece, practicing a system of self-cultivation based on a martial art, and using the tools of that martial art, telling the martial artists that they know that the tool “is not a tool” and perpetuating ignorance and myth through not having any understanding of the history and context of the very system they practice.
No doubt, these iaido practitioners who wrote that sad, ignorant article most likely believe that their iaido is the whole and complete art of the samurai, that they’re the lineage bearers of the samurai tradition, and what they don’t practice is not a relevant part of the art of using a katana.
Only if they really knew what the hell they’re really doing in their dojo! If what their practicing drawing is not a tool, then they’re not emulating using a tool, a weapon (which, incidentally, is what iaido practice’s focus is meant to be, you’re meant to imagine fighting an opponent with a live blade in all the forms!). If that's the case then sadly they’re just dancing with a lightweight toy sword...
Each to their own I guess!!! It probably makes them feel good about themselves in some way.
|
|
|
Post by frankthebunny on Jul 2, 2013 21:18:41 GMT
Same here and using the same dbma training. We were sparring almost as soon as we were beginning to learn the techniques and I thought this was strange at first, throwing us into full contact sparring without really knowing what we're doing. You could flail sticks around with great technique and swing a sword with terrific form but not having a clue what actual impact feels like (from both ends) and how it affects your swings and recovery can make all of that training incomplete and pretty much useless.
You can tell those who have never sparred (or rarely sparred) from those who have by their reactions or more accurately, the lack of. The ones twirling and moving smoothly only until engaged stood out from those continuing proper movement during attacks and defense.
Whether it's a clean hit/cut or a blocked or botched hit/cut, the difference from just swinging on air is night and day. I believe that if your training is to learn to use the weapon as it was intended, you absolutely need to spar or perform target practice but if you are interested in learning form alone for the art or even just exercise then no contact is probably fine.
|
|
|
Post by stickem on Jul 2, 2013 23:59:59 GMT
It depends on what the rules are. If someone has been taught to score a point with their backfist-reverse punch combination (or by swinging a shinai for that matter) and then stop... looking around like a prairie dog at the referees to make sure they saw your point and raise a flag... then yes, they are training terrible habits. Real life doesn't stop.
Remember, the MMA matches we see on TV still have rules. They are fighting, but MMA is still a sport. There are time limits, they limit the targets you can strike, they don't allow you to use objects, and so on... As a general principle, the more layers of rules there are, the further away from real life we get.
If you are convinced historically fighting was done all chivalrously and bushido and all of these rules of proper etiquette were followed all the time... well, I just don't agree with that idea. When life is on the line, people do all sorts of things to make sure they are on the right side of the line :lol:
The thing is, everyone has a plan until they get hit.
Once you get hit, whatever is wired in there will come out. In biology, we talk about the flight-or-fight response to a crisis situation. As Josh said, there is also a 3rd common response, which is to freeze. Note that in the real world, all 3 of these responses have their place. Each is useful at times and not useful at other times.
These responses are wired in us a at a basic physiological level. It just is what it is. To be able to respond the proper way in some sort of crisis (e.g., a sword coming at you), it really helps if you have simulated these sorts of situations. The point being, you don't really know what will come out if you never try it.
Believe me, gross motor movements happen and complicated fine motor skills generally go out the window when we are amped up, so learning how to be calm during a fighting situation is an acquired skill for most people. So we have to acquire it.
Guro Crafty calls it The Parable of the Virgin, which goes something like this:
1. Do you remember the first time you had sex?
2. Were you any good at it?
3. Have you gotten any better since then?
Fighting is like this. The bad news is when you start, you probably won't be very good at it. The good news is you will get better if you keep at it :lol:
I get that working with a sword can be a meditative practice, in which we work on our minds and heart and spirit rather than engaging in combat. Actually, I do a lot more meditation with a sword than I do any sort of planned form or cutting or anything else. I get it.
That said, where these iaido people are concerned (the individuals who were quoted in the beginning), if they believe they know exactly what they will do in some sort of crisis/combat situation, yet never have practiced anything other than doing kata in the air, then they are just fooling themselves. This is nothing more than the ego making them blind to the truth.
The truth is you can worship your sword as some sort of "soul of the samurai" icon that is too holy to use if you wish. Different strokes for different folks. Just be aware this belief in swords being holy objects won't stop someone else's sword from cutting you in half.
I have no problem with someone who doesn't train to fight. I have no problem with someone who does train to fight. But I do have a problem with someone who does one of these things and calls it the other.
The world is full of McDojo franchises in which there are 12-year-old children running around wearing black belts. This is fine, as long as the child hasn't been lied to and told he is practicing for and ready for combat. A 12-year-old blackbelt's training is more like going to soccer practice than it is practicing combat.
This is no big deal... unless the kid grows up thinking otherwise because of the unscrupulous adults who have lied to him/her. It can be a big deal when as an adult, these same people have grown up believing they are somehow equipped to fight in real life situations, and their egos do not allow them to see the truth. But this is not an excuse. We all have to work on our ignorance to see the truth. I am ignorant of most things, but I try to remain teachable.
Sucks when your tea cup is too full to fill with anything else, so I feel compassion for these folks who are unrealistic about their fighting abilities because we are all delusional about this thing or that thing to some extent. It is just part of being human :lol:
|
|