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Post by adamthedrummer on Apr 3, 2013 11:22:24 GMT
Pondering these two as a first cutter... which would be the better option?? The blades seem similar to me.
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Post by stickem on Apr 3, 2013 12:40:34 GMT
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Post by uchiha998 on Apr 3, 2013 16:39:44 GMT
I agree with stickem. A good Cheness blade has a reputation for being durable and capable cutters. Though I think most people go with the Cheness Tenchi over the Kaze, especially if they are looking for a durable blade because the Tenchi is TH. I however would go with Kaze over the Tenchi or probably any other Cheness blade. However its certainly true that Cheness has had a lot of QC issues lately and some of the blades people have received turned out to be horrible lemons. Also the reviews are certainly outdated on this site. So I would suggest not buying any Cheness or SBG katana for your first cutter.
All of the katana stickem mentions are better choices. Personally, I believe the Dynasty Forge is a little over priced. $325 for a TH 1060 blade with rather plain fittings and cotton itomaki. I have a friend with 5(at least) Dynasty Forge katana and my opinion of the Musha as a cutter is only only so-so. The Hanwei Raptor looks similar but is a tougher blade, in fact many would say its the most durable blade on the market in its price range right now. Its also about $50 cheaper than the DF Musha.
As far as the 1095 budget beater goes, well, its no secret I'm dying to get my hands on 1 of these. Its DH blade which I much prefer over TH. The destruction test videos show its is just as durable as most of the TH blades in its price range. Maybe it can't quite take as punishment as a Raptor or Ronin Dojo Pro but if you watch the video you will quickly see that it can withstand punishment that you would never dream of doing to any katana. The has a beautiful hamon and a nicer tsuka than any blade even close to the $265 list price.
If you don't opt for the , my next suggestion would be a Ronin Dojo Pro. There are actually quite a few models to choose from including a 26", 29", 30" or even 33" nagasa models. Ronin really steps up their fittings and aesthetics for the price range. All of the RDP have Iron fittings on the blade and Buffalo Horn on the Saya. The itomaki is real silk as well, which you don't generally find on swords at this price.
Blades like the 1095 beater($265) and the RDP($275) are the reason I say that the DF Musha and Also Cold Steel Warrior katana are overpriced. Its not that much of a price increase but the tsuka and itomaki you get on the and the fittings you get on the RDP make them a far better value. I think most people would agree with me when I say that the blades(speaking of cutting ability) on the & RDP are just as good if not better than the DF Musha.
In any case I hope this helps out. I just wanted to elaborate on the blades stickem mentioned to you. He pretty much picked the best of the bunch and also safest buys for you start with. Let us know what you decide.
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Post by Lobster Hunter on Apr 3, 2013 17:42:59 GMT
The folks above have suggested some excellent alternatives but if you like the look of the Kaze, you won't regret buying it. It's a good sword. The chance of receiving a lemon exists with ALL brands. Examine it carefully when you first receive it before "using" or altering it. Some issues are easy to correct yourself. Some are not and may require sending it back.
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Post by stickem on Apr 3, 2013 20:14:01 GMT
True. The first 3 swords I bought were a Hanwei, a Ronin, and a . All were scratch'n'dent/demo blades with something which needed to be fixed, so it definitely happens with the other vendors too.... The difference is you can save some $ when you know it is a scratch'n'dent ahead of time... not so if the vendor sends it to you at full price with similar issues. Again, I have no first hand experience with Cheness katana, so talk to the folks who do for a better scoop. In general, just realize the "official SBG" sword reviews are years old. Better to look here for more current review type stuff: forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13315
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Post by kingrikoraru on Apr 3, 2013 20:22:39 GMT
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Post by Arwyn on Apr 3, 2013 23:15:49 GMT
I have the Cheness Kaze, the 1095, and the Ronin DojoPro. All of them have been good solid swords, in my experience.
Cheness has some QC issues right now, and outside of that, they have the worst fitting. The plus side is that the generally use a two meguki system, which I think is a plus from a safety perspective. The kissaki polish is plain ugly, but the rest of polish was decent, the hamon shows well without any aftermarket pimping. The fittings on the Kaze I have were plain but solid. The ito was nice and tight, but irregular. The saya doesn't fit particularly well though, its loose and will need to be shimmed soon. I have been satisfied with the one I have. It has cut well, though the edge needed a bit of a touch up.
The I just recently picked up. It has very nice fittings for the price, the ito is very well done, nice and tight. The blade polish is quite good, the hamon shows through nicely and is not artificially enhanced. The samegawa is decent, and the patina on the menuki is attractive. Real copper seppa and a nice habiki. Down sides were a loose seppa, a poor saya fit, and an ugly kissaki. I have not cut with it yet, but other than the loose seppa, the sword is nice and solid. The are also fairly famous for being sharp, the 1095 isnt as sharp as the other more expensive , but its definitely the sharpest of the three out of the box.
The Ronin has a big solid blade and has been fun to cut with. The fittings are plain but functional, and better than the Cheness. The saya on the Ronin is easily the best of the three swords, its nicely done and a good fit. The saya IS very waxy however, so it gets on the blade when stored in the saya. The polish on the Ronin is not as bright as the , but the kissaki polish is better. The Ronin is a through hardened blade in comparison to the Kaze or the .
I have not cut with the yet, but thats coming. The Kaze cuts well and handles well, but is let down by the fittings. The Ronin is a big solid beefy blade, and I am not scared of cutting with it at all.
I would say if your looking for a first cutter, I would suggest going with something thats going to be forgiving of a new swordsman and go with the Ronin, its a solid sword and can take some abuse and poor cuts. If you really want the differentially hardened blade, go with the , but be gentle with the targets you start with, as it will be more likely to take a set with a bad cut.
The Kaze may still be a good choice, but IMO the other two manufactures have a better product out of the box. That being said, the Cheness blades are tough, and the kaze may not be a bad place to start if you dont mind changing out the fittings and turning it into a small project blade.
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Post by adamthedrummer on Apr 4, 2013 3:08:25 GMT
Thanks a lot for the input...actually have a fair bit of sword practice under my belt... but my only real katana is huge...and so end heavy it handles terribly... but sounds great due to the large bloodgroove... however is isn't sharpened and I wouldn't attempt to hone it ( fake hamon) the others are wall hangers...
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 4, 2013 3:29:53 GMT
Some good options mentioned here,but may I ask what drew you to the Kaze and SBG Custom to start with?
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Post by adamthedrummer on Apr 4, 2013 3:43:12 GMT
Price point...real hamon... not so valuable as to be afraid to use it either... I know a gentleman who has a real japanese forged katana but he never cuts with it...too valuable he says . Tried looking at the battle ready katanas... the company is not selling any katanas at all.... sold out it says....lol
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 4, 2013 3:56:49 GMT
For what you want I would go with an "Beater" if you can wait,they should be back in May sometime. And take a look at Kris Cutlery 29 series. Or you could get a Jubei (swordnarmory.com) or a Musashi Shirakawa series for under $100 and take more time to figure out what exactly you would like.Both of these are good first inexpensive choices for light cutting and a good way to gauge what you like and dont like.I would recommend the Jubei over the Musashi due to better fittings and that Ive seen the Jubei handle things the Musashi wouldnt.
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Post by ninjedi on Apr 4, 2013 19:17:17 GMT
I have a Kaze and am always eager to jump at the chance to recommend it to anyone who inquires. It's awesome; I love it. Seriosuly, it's like the most favorite thing I own, besides my car. I wish I could take it with me everywhere I go. For real, it's totally not fair that my wife gets to take her $400 purse with her everywhere she goes, but I have to leave my katana at home. I have not handled a sbg custom, but I have had a chance to handle (and cut with) many other swords, and unless you want to up your budget into the $500-600+ range, you could do alot worse than a Kaze.
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Post by Alex.Moranz on Apr 5, 2013 3:22:00 GMT
I have an beater series which I picked up a month or two ago and I love it, granted it is my first and only katana, plus I have no experience and insubstantial knowledge on katana. What I can tell you about it is that it is well put together and can take a beating. I lack what certain people call finesse, and I probably should not own swords but instead large axes and hammers, because when I use my swords I am swinging for the fences so to speak. :lol: With that being said I have smacked my around a decent bit and she still looks brand new with no damage at all. On that note I have heard great things about Ronin, I just have never been fortunate enough to get my hands on one. I think either one would fit for what you are looking for.
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 5, 2013 3:55:10 GMT
Well Ronin DP is 1060 TH,so its not what the op is looking for,and I personally would go with 5160(Raptor) or 9260(Chenness) over 1060 TH at that price if tough TH was my priority. The problem with Chenness is near nonexistant quality control.5 out of 10 may be great and the other 5 crap.To be fair,lemons can come from anywhere.But they seem to come alot more from Chenness recently.And even with a good one,they are just outdone by whats available on the market today.The 9260 is tough,but,not very consistant from what Ive heard and seen recently.And the 5160 Hanwei Raptor is,imho,tougher and more reliable.The other thing is Chenness customer service has been pretty bad.To the point of telling customers a sword they recieved barely sharper than an iaito/mogito is supposed to be that way. Imho,Chenness is just outclassed in todays market.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Apr 5, 2013 9:57:10 GMT
If you gamble and enjoy it then the Cheness is for you, you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good one.
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Post by GUEST on Apr 5, 2013 9:59:24 GMT
I think that this may be the very first time I have posted in defense of Cheness, but it's time to step in and give my $0.02 for what it's worth. Point form actually, sorry to be abrupt - but I am right in the middle of updating all the old reviews with new information - newer reviews will be added once the old stuff has been taken care of. 1) John, where are you getting these figures from? We have sold maybe 5,000 Cheness swords since SBG started. QC issues are nothing even close to 50% as you say or I would not be selling them. Maybe 5% max. I can speak for Cheness customer service but I stand behind the products I sell or I would not be selling them. Believe me, margins on Cheness are lower than ANY other brand - but I have stood by them, year after year after year. If it was about money, I would shift to something more profitable. 2) Because of the volume of swords sold and the number of years they are sold, the numbers of reported QC issues will be higher than a new maker - should go without saying, but it gets forgotten. 3) Forum echoes and sentiment play a HUGE part here too. What are forum echos? One person reports a problem and everyone sees it. Next time someone asks about this product, the original problem is brought up again and more people see it, so that next time it is mentioned, it gets repeated ad infinitum. Naturally, this sours sentiment against the brand. Over time, this compounds - so you end up with statements like 5 out of 10 swords are no good. Nature of forums I am afraid, but if we are at least aware of this effect we can make an assessment that is closer to reality. 4) As I am going through and updating the pages of the main site I don't feel that the Cheness Kaze has been outclassed (at least, not by anything differentially hardened at $300 or below, need to compare apples with apples here!). It's a solid blade, and Paul Chen has been very forthright with his what to expect page: www.chenessinc.com/expect.htm - most other DH Katana at this price point are too brittle in my opinion, and that makes them dangerous if you don't know what to expect. Where a Hanwei Elite or XL may well chip or snap on a hard target, a Kaze will usually just be bent out of shape. Of course, we all know the Kaze can break, we have seen it on this very forum (which exists BECAUSE of Cheness sales!! Ironic, but true - I don't edit anything nor hide it, that's not the SBG way). But the chances of it breaking are lower (I'm hunting now for some testing a Shihan did for me where he was going to do a side by side test of a Cheness and a Hanwei but the Hanwei got chewed up on the first test - even have shots under a microscope - I'll add this to the site soon). 5) So called 'old' brands and 'old' reviews actually have TREMENDOUS value. If a product has been selling for 6+ years, it should tell you something. In today's market, if it's really crap a product dies within a few months at best. Consumers won't stand for it - they will send it back, dispute it with paypal or a credit card company, etc. If it has been selling for years, and is still going strong - to me it suggests it is a tried and tested classic. I would rather have a Cheness or a Kris Cutlery (or a SBG even :mrgreen: ) any day than something untried and untested if it's going to be my first sword.. I would not steer a beginner towards something that I did not know intimately. This doesn't mean that we should not look at new offerings of course, but don't dismiss old brands or old reviews just because they are old. They are bedrock! 6) New brands are appealing because we all like something that is 'fresh'. But it's also very risky BECAUSE it is new. What happens if the importer gets his first set of swords and they are all fantastic because the forge is trying hard to impress, but the next order is sloppy. Everyone will be excited about a brand new product that got a few rave reviews and then the next lot has major issues because someone tried to save a few bucks at the forge. If the importer is just starting out, they will not be able to cover everyone who purchased if the entire batch is bad - their business will go down and you will be left footing the bill (not so true with larger/established sword sellers as they should have a backup plan if it all goes to crap). I'd try one myself, but I would never recommend one to a beginner. I have more to add on this subject (heck, I could write a 300 page book on it!) but I need to get back to the site update. In the meantime, a quick bit of housekeeping and gentle reminder - re rule 5. I don't mean to come off Draconian in this thread and I am not mad at anyone, but as I am updating the Japanese swords section right now, it seemed pertinent and this is the FIRST time I have ever actually stepped in when Cheness is mentioned, I thought I might break tradition and try to show the other side of the story.. I make it no secret, I sell Cheness at the SBG sword store. These sales make this forum possible, even to the point of where Cheness bashing can be a popular sport - I won't ban you or kick you off unless you break the forum rules. If you have a problem when you buy one, let me know and we will work something out to your satisfaction one way or the other. It makes me a little sad when people bash them based on forum echoes, misconceptions and the dismissive 'but it's old and outdated'. If you can show me a sword with at least a few hundred satisfied customers that can compare, let's get it reviewed, tested and recommended. But until that day, I'm still happy to recommend the Kaze as a good choice for a sub $300 sword for a beginner. Ok, I did not mean to write a long rambling novel - been working till 3-4am every night for the last 2 weeks doing this blasted site update so am slightly delirious and don't have time to check if what I wrote makes sense. (fingers crossed yo get what I am getting at). Got to get back into the update fray... But in the meantime, as always, your thoughts and suggestions are welcome. Thanks folks, - Paul
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Apr 5, 2013 10:32:26 GMT
Yes, perhaps we should modify our claims, swords bought through the SBG store including a Kaze last year have been issue free.
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Post by GUEST on Apr 5, 2013 11:11:33 GMT
I wish..! My, oh my I wish..
But these are production swords under $300 so we have to be realistic.. Despite best attempts sometimes things go wrong of course (sure - sometimes, despite best efforts, occasionally a true dog of a sword goes through with ALL the possible ugliness of the line or there is a plain old lemon - it's rare but it does and will happen with any brand).
If something goes wrong, or if it's not satisfactory I'll work out something out with whoever I sold it to and get it fixed though. Is there a specific case you are mentioning?
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Post by stickem on Apr 5, 2013 12:27:29 GMT
True enough. The first 3 Hanwei I bought (a Raptor, an iaito, and an Orchid) all had QC issues. With the Raptor, I knew about the saya problem ahead of time, so no worries. In the other two cases, the iaito blade was bent and the kashira on the Orchid looked like it had been used to hammer nails. Both had to be returned and never should have passed QC. I was left with the impression that Hanwei is cr@p based on these experiences. What should be added to Paul's point is the choice of vendor plays a huge part in these decisions. All sword makers have their lemons, so 'tis good to work with a vendor you can actually talk with and who is helpful, and who are interested in weeding out the mistakes before they get to you in the first place. I think this is a big reason so many folks 'round here recommend and Ronin, as Chris and Ricky are great at customer service and QC. My Raptor came from KoA, who is known for their own QC process. Very happy with them Still have the sword. The other two I bought on Amazon, and I suspect they may have been selling 2nds that had already been returned by someone else :? Won't buy from vendors on Amazon again. Probably happens often when you buy the sword at the lowest price you can possibly find, which is what I did in these cases. Even a novice like I was at the time should have seen the issues immediately when viewing these swords. So yes, the number of QC issues reported goes up as the volume of swords sold goes up. My suggestion is to buy swords through a good vendor to minimize these sorts of problems. My later experience with Hanwei have been much better, and certainly Hanwei is not cr@p as my first small sized sample would seem to indicate. That Raptor may just be the toughest sword I ever own... Very good point. I am guilty of this apparently. As stated, I have no personal experience with Cheness blades and was regurgitating the problems others had reported here previously. Another thing is forum echoes work the other way too... meaning sometimes people parrot "This is a great sword, buy it!" because they have others say this, without actually knowing it to be true. Sometimes it is not clear from a post whether people are speaking from direct experience or just going with the herd. It seems the general consensus is Cheness makes very tough blades. No argument there. I do think it is fair to say there are better sub-$300 options as far as non-blade related concerns go, such as fittings. True. Everyone's experience is valid. If it happened yesterday or 5 years ago, it is still a real experience. I did not mean to imply that the standard 'SBG official' reviews were not useful. They certainly are. Rather, I intended to point the OP towards the much larger number of reviews available on the SBG Forum to get lots of feedback from different people on different swords. Yikes! Guilty. My intention was to give the OP many reputable options to choose from and thus be helpful. But you are right, sometimes we "help" where we are not asked to do so. My bad. There are many other folks here who's opinion I value as well who own Cheness and report good things about them. So many folks on the SBG Forum do recommend them. Having had no personal experience with a Cheness, I defer to the opinions of other, more-experienced folks here who have handled them (as mentioned previously). As are yours! Apologies to the OP for breaking rule #5 and hope it did not derail the thread to far off course. As they say, sometimes the road to Hades is paved with good intentions :lol: And Paul, I think I speak for everyone here when I say you have our gratitude for fixing the slow loading problems we've all experienced with SBG Forum lately. It sounds like a tedious thing to undertake, so please know we appreciate your efforts!!! And Adam, be sure to tell us what you get and what your experience is with it. This is the most important thing (in my opinion), that is sharing our experiences with one another allows us all to live vicariously through one another, and also helps us find good swords and avoid the crummy ones by learning from the experience of others. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program of claymation monsters and general sword-related mayhem and mischief...
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Post by johnwalter on Apr 5, 2013 13:10:35 GMT
No offense taken Paul,I certainly value your opinion and experience with these various dealers,and I know you really like the Kaze,but,I said 5 out of 10 may be,not 5 out of 10 are.It wasnt a matter of fact statement.And Chenness being outclassed is,as I said,is my opinion,nothing more and it was Chenness in general not exactly the Kaze,which I think is their best piece.Of the only 7 Chenness kats Ive dealt with recently,none of them were very impressive to me with what else is available now,except for the one Kaze and the one SGC Yamakami.And I just think better is available,not that its a bad brand.Honestly Ive seen more Chenness and Hanwei in dojos than any other maker,Chenness dominates the local dojo here actually. You are correct in that we seem to usually see and here all the bad and very little good.But,that has been the outcome of my very little experience with Chenness.And the threads here not too long ago about poor CS kinda turns my stomach.On the other hand the few times I have suggested a Chenness or knew someone who wanted one,I recommend buying from SBG.But I personally will almost always suggest something other than Chenness when asked what I think. I will take back the part about lemons seem to come more from them lately,as that was based purely on hearing more of the bad lately. And I love Kc kats,recommend them quite often actually. In a later post the in this same thread the OP states he was looking at another option, to be specific,so at that point I see offering other options as totally acceptable. To the op,I too apologize if you took any of my comments as derailing your thread
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