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Post by Sporks on Apr 2, 2013 5:23:04 GMT
Hello! Folks here seem rather knowledgeable so I was hoping to pick at that knowledge for some sword shopping advice.
I am looking for a jian for martial arts practice (xingyiquan and baguazhang) but I am running into difficulties. The first is that my desired specifications seem difficult to find. Secondly, I'm finding it very difficult to gauge the quality of online vendors and am a bit nervous since I've never purchased a sword online before.
What I'm looking for is a jian primarily for forms practice and conditioning. I don't need anything nice for cutting. I need something durable enough to not fall apart or wobble when swinging it around and may survive accidentally nicking the dirt. Since this is just for practice, I'm looking for something preferable unsharpened or mostly unsharpened. And I'm looking for something relatively heavy, 2-3 pounds (without scabbard) at least.
I've been mostly looking in the $100-200 range (I'm a poor college student). I've discovered that cheaper swords seem rather flimsy and light. More expensive swords seem to be more "battle ready" or razor sharp cutting swords and of way higher quality than what I need. Swords within my price range that I've found have been mostly too light, too sharp, or of a quality that I couldn't discern.
I welcome any advice at all. Thanks : )
Sincerely,
A Budding Gong Fu and Sword Enthusiast.
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Taran
Member
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Post by Taran on Apr 2, 2013 11:32:07 GMT
Jin Shi can make it to your specs, as can Sinoswords. Both are well-regarded here. Sinoswords costs less and has more customization options, but Jin Shi gets better quality.
I'm sure there are a few others as well, but those are the ones I am familiar with.
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Post by stickem on Apr 2, 2013 11:42:57 GMT
Hi there! I have been practicing xing yi, tai chi, and bagua for the last 6 years. Though I often practice with a live blade, the blunt I practice with is a relatively cheap one from KC. Didn't really feel like spending much for a non-sharpie... The fittings and such aren't very fancy, but it is a solid sword when swung rather than a tinfoil wushu blade. If you are a poor college student, then you might save some $ by trying a "Golden Dragon Jian" seen here: kriscutlery.com/documents/chinese.htmlas it is currently about $90. It isn't as heavy as you asked for, but then I'm not sure you'll find many 3lb jian out there... |
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Post by Sporks on Apr 3, 2013 10:10:54 GMT
I contacted Sinoswords. They responded extremely quickly. They suggested a sword which they can make 2.5 lbs blade weight, T10 steel, full tang, and fully function, for in the mid $100 range: www.sinosword.com/ProductShow/?p ... ian-sword- It looks like a way better deal than a lot of similarly priced items I've found online, and fits my specs great. |
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Post by Sporks on Apr 3, 2013 18:56:27 GMT
Another update: I've also contacted Jin Shi to see what they think since they are very highly regarded here. I also found out Kris Cutlery made a batch of custom swords actually exactly to my instructors' specifications several years ago, so I should probably send them a message as well. In the meantime, someone also pointed this out to me. It's a beast of a sword over 3lbs, and they claim it's good for practice. However, I haven't heard any reviews of this particular product so I really have nothing to go on. So I wanted to post this here if anyone had thoughts: www.martialartsmart.com/45-54.htmlSince I can get a custom sword for the same price (but a bit lighter which is still fine), I'm currently leaning towards that right now since those folks seem to have a good reputation. Also this may be my first sword, but the more I look into this, the more I get the suspicion that it really won't be my last... I can't afford it now, but folded steel is just oh so pretty. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 3, 2013 21:41:49 GMT
I'd avoid it. Unless the weight is a mistake. The blade, not counting tang, even if no taper at all, will be under 800g. That makes the hilt over 600g. If the weight is accurate, this has an overweight hilt (maybe with lead-filled pommel) to bring the point of balance back to an unrealistic position. (Seems like a reasonable marketing move, since lots of potential buyers like the PoB like that.)
Ask them where the PoB is.
For comparison:
Sword / Blade thickness / Blade length / Weight
This one 0.25" 32" 3lb 2oz
Hanwei Chinese Cutting Sword 0.23" 29.25" 2lb 2oz
Dynasty Forge Jue Yun Jian 0.25" 29.5" 1lb 15oz
Cold Steel Jade Lion 0.24" 28.25" 2lb 3oz
Cold Steel Gim 0.27" 30" 2lb 2oz
So this one is longer, but it shouldn't be a pound heavier.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2013 9:23:42 GMT
I agree with Timo, 3lb is way too heavy for a Jian, I have a European medieval bastard sword with a 35″ blade that weighs around that and tha'ts considered too heavy. A jian around 2lb is plenty heavy for practice and as a real sword!
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Post by stickem on Apr 4, 2013 14:58:20 GMT
Right. The practice jian I use from KC is 1.8 lbs. Not sure why you'd want to double the weight and get something 3 lb 2 oz...
Did your instructor suggest this? Is this what he uses, a 3# jian? If so, perhaps 'tis better to do what your instructor asks. Is he a giant person? If so, it would make sense. Are you a giant person? If so, it could make sense.
If not, then 3# is pretty big for a one handed weapon. Heavy for a two-handed weapon, IMO.
My suggestion is when training, we often use iron rings on our arms or wear chains strapped bandito-style across the chest. You can do something like this instead. The point being, there are old school ways to add resistance without getting a tire-iron of a sword to do it. I'd suggest going with a cheap 2# jian and getting used to the feel of it before you commit to using only something heavy.
Of course, you teacher may have other plans for you... but I cannot speak to his teaching methods since I am not familiar with them.
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Post by Sporks on Apr 4, 2013 19:11:45 GMT
I was a bit confused about the upper 2 to lower 3lb sword idea (My instructors couldn't recall the sepcs exactly, I can probably find that out later tonight). The idea as I understand it from them is that they kind of want me to struggle with this to force me to learn the internal connections and use my whole body to move the sword around efficiently. If I just keep swinging my arms around everywhere, I'll just end up tired, have weaker forms, and possibly damage my wrist. So, part of it is conditioning, part of it is to simulate being exhausted in a fight, part of it is punitive to keep me from trying to use my arms to generate force. They do the same thing with open-hand forms sometimes, encouraging us to practice exhausted when our arms and legs feel like lead or jello so we force ourselves to relax and learn to still hit with force while exhausted. I suppose they'd encourage me to try a lighter sword when I get a lot better with the connections. At least, that the logic as I understand it.
They also sometimes like passing around a solid iron cane when doing cane work. That thing is a beast that I can barely even pick up one handed. My instructors are pretty tiny people too. I best both of them in weight and I'm barely hitting 130lbs.
With that 3+ lb sword I posted, I was somewhat dubious of its quality. I heard it was really difficult to make a sword that heavy at all, so I was somewhat suspicious. Materials are only so dense. Also the connection at the hilt and the fittings seemed a bit odd to me, but I couldn't really tell.
I found Kris doesn't do customs anymore so they don't have my school's old specs. So right now I'm leaning towards the Sinosword. I don't mind investing a little bit extra for a nice blade. On the one hand, I'm using this for training. On the other, I really wouldn't mind having a decent quality sword I can sharpen up and whack things with.
Also, thanks for all the advice so for.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 5, 2013 2:26:49 GMT
The idea of a heavy jian for practice is OK. 3lbs isn't ridiculously heavy; there are surviving antiques of close to 3lbs (though I don't remember any that actually reached 3lbs). However, a lot of these heavy antique jian are ornate, and possibly presentation and/or dress swords, not intended for fighting. One can find quite functional European swords of 3lbs in weight (although most single-handed swords were lighter).
It isn't difficult to make a 3lb sword - just make the blade thicker and/or wider, and the fittings heavier. The trick would be to make a sword of that weight that balances like a jian (which, IMO, means having the forward pivot point (AKA centre of percussion) at or very close to the point). On the heavy jian, the blade end of the guard is in a style common enough on jian with cheap nasty zinc-aluminium alloy cast guards. That doesn't mean the rest of the sword is flimsy or of poor quality, but you'd have to disassemble it to check.
One idea would be to use the other kind of jian, the jian-mace (different pronunciation; if we indicate tone, "jian" for sword 劍 is jiàn or jian4, "jian" for mace 鐧 is jiǎn or jian3). These were historically used for this kind of training, to develop strength and stamina. The Cold Steel Chinese Sword Breaker is one, and about the weight you were after. Cheaper ones can be found on ebay, but might be of dubious quality.
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Post by stickem on Apr 5, 2013 3:13:14 GMT
You're welcome. We use wooden blocks with iron weights in the bottom of 'em, called mok yi pai, like this: tibetanhopgar.com/images/mok_yi_pai.jpgfor training the use of the whole body to move a weight held in the hand. The idea sounds the same, which is to say you can only use arm/shoulder strength for so long before you have to use your center (waist) to move the blocks. When your arms get tired, you basically do it from the core whether you want to or not. So the idea itself is sound... Not sure why you couldn't use an iron bar in place of a jian (similar to using the iron cane you mentioned) to simulate the length and grip of a jian, yet give it the extra weight you are looking for. Would save a lot of cabbage that way and an iron bar would give you a regular weight distribution rather than being heavier on one end or the other... you could even wrap the end in leather to make sure you keep a grip... just a thought  Anyway, here is a Chinese iron club, which is shaped much like a jian. It weighs 4lbs if you really want to go heavy: www.wle.com/products/WS106-C.htmlThat's probably as close as I can come up with to what you are asking for  Again, what your sifu asks you to do is the proper thing to do in almost any situation. |
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Post by Sporks on Apr 5, 2013 4:13:38 GMT
That is something I'm looking into actually. I just like exploring all my options. My "staff" is something I put together from cheap lumber at a hardware store. My cane I get for cheap at a farming supply store. I normally just find something cheap to do the job. Though a part of me just thinks that real swords are really cool...
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Post by stickem on Apr 5, 2013 11:10:53 GMT
Preaching to the choir :lol: Real swords are really cool. Thing is, there is something really cool about making your own training equipment as well. We generally make all of our wooden equipment (e.g., dummies, mok yi pai blocks, staves, etc.), but have limited capabilities with metal work. My suggestion is make your own training device. Also buy a sword you actually like for its design, rather than just its weight. Avoid the "wushu" stuff made of tinfoily flexy metal, and get something made of carbon steel for your jian. For example, here is one many folks like: sevenstarstrading.com/site/hanwei/cuttingjian/ |
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Post by Nox on Apr 5, 2013 14:38:13 GMT
Huano and the cold steel jian seem to have a little more heft. The hanwei cutting jin is very light, but something I would say every Jian practioner should try out. An as for Sinosword/jkoosword I have got some decent and some bad from them, mainly the fittings/handles. Other than that they make very nice looking blades.(just don't damage your scabard or fittings or they might charge you pretty much what your sword cost ust for a replacement.)
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 6, 2013 4:50:04 GMT
Very light? Compared to what?
The usual weight given in specs is the same as the Cold Steel Gim; both are about 920g. The CS Gim is more compact, and easier to swing around. (Both are very well balanced jian, IMO.) For a training sword, I'd recommend the Hanwei, as more authentic. Also if one wants to blunt it for safety in forms training, you don't have a mirror polish to mar.
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Post by Nox on Apr 6, 2013 12:15:01 GMT
Compared to the original cold steel gim, the hung shing jian, the TFW jian, both of the custom order sino/jkoo swords I have. The long handle on the Hanwei cutting jian makes it feel diferent and lighter (to me personally) than the standard cold steel gim.
I have always wondered why is it that weight is such an issue with the Jian? The japanese katana comes in all diferent kinds of shapes, sizes, styles, and weights. Why can't the jian? If someone feels more comfortable using a heavier sword then why not?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 6, 2013 23:48:13 GMT
How heavy is the original CS Gim? I thought it was only (by specs) about 2oz heavier. You must like heavy jian! The Hanwei is not light (nor heavy), and if you have a whole bunch of heavier ones ...
How is the TFW for balance? Where is the forward pivot point? This is close in weight to what the OP was asking for.
Weight is such in issue with jian because so many people use them for non-fighting MA. They have a reputation as light and delicate, gentlemanly, compared to the "brutal and heavy" dao. Never mind that one-handed dao don't appear to be heavier than jian on average; surely reputation counts for more than real specimens. Also one sees people recommending jian with PoB at the guard. Maybe that's all good for people who dance with them, rather than fighting with them?
(How light is "light"? I'd call 700g light for a full length sword (over, say, 26" of blade). Lightest I have is 400g - that's light!)
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Post by Bushido on Apr 6, 2013 23:55:07 GMT
I own a custom sinosword (review below, feel free to read) and I can highly recommend them! Awesome value for money in my opinion, and with all of their customization options you can get a sword exactly to your liking. Waiting time is of course a bit longer compared to buying off the shelf, but if you're not in a hurry the result is worth waiting for. Also, the less complex of a custom job you're going to go for the shorter the waiting time will be.
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Post by Nox on Apr 7, 2013 1:45:46 GMT
I like both heavy and light jian depending on what type of training I am doing. As for the original CS gim I'll have to check the weight on it later, but it is much heavier and the blade is very thick, it also has a point of balance at about 6 1/2 inches. ( I think that most antique Jian have a similar point of balance)  this comparisson pic should give you an idea. As for the TFW I no longer have that one, but I remeber it being a litle heavier than the rest but not as heavy as the one above. It had a oint of balance at around 5 1/2 from the guard and was slightly longer than the rest. |
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