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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 2:01:44 GMT
Hello all, I have always wondered what sort of weapons the Hebrews and Philistines toted when they fought their wars in the Old Testement. Anyone have any ideas? I have been told that they probably toted some sort of bronze, and later, short swords or some of those weird but deadly Egyptian style weapons. Just curious. FB
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Post by rammstein on May 10, 2007 2:05:03 GMT
Some sort of bronze/copper short sword I would imagine, possibly leaf bladed and well within 20 inches in length I believe. I have some pictures from a book (DK"s Weapons that are absolute eye-candy spears would most certainly be common, but I wouldn't be suprised if maces and egyptian styled axes were also utilized. I think you are reffering by wierd and deadly to the egyptian kopesh, which is essentially a sword with a forward curving blade for the cutting of an axe, and a point that is aligned with the hilt for a thrust like a spear.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 2:18:55 GMT
The khopesh didn't originate until the time of the hyksos invasion of egypt if memory serves me correctly. I think the spear would have been prevalent as to the kind of swords i really dont know i've never come across anything that talked about them.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2007 2:49:43 GMT
Thanks y'all. Bibilical history, especially Hebrew battles and wars, have always fascinated me. FB
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2007 2:56:35 GMT
Phillistines, like Hittites, knew iron forging and used iron weapons......Goliath's armor was of iron, not copper or bronze.......my two cents worth of contribution
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 12:10:35 GMT
Hey akuzokuzan, But I thought the Bible said his weapons were of iron but his armor was of brass? FB
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 12:27:16 GMT
oh yeah that's right..........the armor was brass!!! should read it more often hehehee.....but still, the Philistines knew how to forge iron like the Hittites. Now on the Hittites, the Biblical HIttites are not the historical HIttite Empire; the Biblical ones are a tribe who lived north of Israel and had a small kingdom, somewhere present day Jordan or Syria(?).
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 13:13:51 GMT
There was some ancient Egyptian historian that live in like 1AD that said that the Philistines were the descendents of an Atlantean army. He said that they had been fighting a war of agression and conquest against the known world. The Athenians stopped them cold north of the Mediteranian and they were still at war with Egypt south of the Mediteranian. Word came that Atlantis had sunk so the Atlantean army made a truce with Egypt. Basically they said that since they had no homeland, they could fight to the last man, or serve Egypt as their new home. Egypt agreed, and since the Atlantean ARmy was self sufficient, had brought its own engeneers, women, various services, etc, Egypt gave the Atlanteans the land on their northern border. The Atlanteans had to protect Egypt from invasion from the North, from the Hittites, etc.. Those Atlanteans'd descendents were the Philistines fo the Bible.
That is far fetched I know, but that is what I read somewhere. Interesting huh? FB
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 15:38:22 GMT
Yes indeed. I'm not so sure about the Atlantean connection, however, I do know that when the Philistines, part of the so called "SEA PEOPLES" began invading the Near East, most civilizations collapsed. Hittites, the remaining Caananites, and other kingdoms in present day Lebanon, Jordan and Syria collapsed, as over 47 fortified sites were overrun by these invaders. To be such prolific warriors, they had to have an advantage which clearly was not numbers............
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Post by rammstein on May 13, 2007 16:38:25 GMT
My ancient history is not up to par but when I think of "sea peoples," the Pheonicians come to mind. Any connection?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2007 18:41:03 GMT
well, phoenicians were mostly sea traders, not invincible conquerors per se. However they were not native to the Canaanite land (much like Hebrews), so there might be a link to them with the Sea Peoples. Even more, some Egyptian records show Israelites amongst some of the warriors slain in a battle against the "Sea Peoples", showing that uncircumsised warriors had their semprini removed, while circumsised ones had their hands cut. Circumsision amongst Middle Eastern peoples was almost exclusive to Israelites. Interesting thread this one, hope it remains free of controversy
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 9:58:11 GMT
There have been other theories that the "Sea Peoples" were Greeks, etc.. I know that some say that some of the Greeks which sacked Troy then went and tried some raiding in the mid east and South Mediteranean. But I don't know, even if that is true, if they would have enough numbers to conquer and topple kingdoms and seriously threaten the might of Egypt.
I myself believe Atlantis existed just as Plato described it and so it stands to reason that they might have threatened the east? Who knows. But I do know that in the Bible, I think in Isayah, there is a mention of kingdoms that God destroyed, due to their iniquities and turning away from God. One, which has a strange name, is an island kingdom, and it says that that God caused it to sink into the ocean or sea in one day. That is exactly what happened to Atlantis supposedly. Interesting corralation there. I think I am going to look that passage up. If I do I will post it here.
Yes, this is an interesting thread. I truly love ancient history, especially the mystical distant past, the Sumerians and their "gods", the Ananaki from another planet, etc.. Speaking of that, anyone ever read any of Zacharia Sitchen's books about the ancient gods? He goes into the Sumerians and all that. Later, FB
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 11:22:15 GMT
the anunakki and the "dragon-men" you refer?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 13:44:15 GMT
Hey Akuzokuzon, The Annanaki is what the Sumerians called their gods if I remember correctly. Remember, the Sumerians were one of the most highly advanced civilizations of the ancient world, 4000 yrs ago. They had detailed maps of our solar system and others out there that we did not have until recent times. Their writings speak of space travel, etc, and beings from other planets. They lived in the area of Iraq, etc, and were the forerunners of Babylon, etc..
But unlike other ancient peoples, the Sumerians actually stated that their gods came from another planet, had like 3000 year life spans, had potiens to keep them immortal (just like the Greek Gods), developed mankind to serve them, tend their gardens (from which the special trees that bore the immortal fruit grew and which man was not allowed to partake of), etc.. Kind of sounds a lot like what it says in Genisis to me. Perhaps Genisis is speaking of the same things?
I think that the gods and goddesses of all the Middle Eastern peoples, including the Greeks, were among these Annanaki who had colonized earth then developed some of mankind to serve them, or at least that is what some of the Sumerian text says from what I have heard and what Zachariah Sitchen theorized as well. At least that is what I have read. In the Bible where it says that the "Sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair and took them as their wives....and their children became men of great renown" is a lot like the way the gods of the ancient world used to do that and have those half god children who were heroes, such as Hercules, Achilles, etc.. I have heard some non Christian guys make comments that maybe Jesus was kin to the ancient heroes who were half god and half man. I hope I am not steppin on any toes here or offending anyone, just telling others opinions I have heard over the years. Just food for thought. FB
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2007 23:51:06 GMT
No offense taken, everyone can say whatever they think in a POLITE and CIVILIZED way. Thankfully you are acting in both ways. Well the Annunaki, or elder gods, are indeed one of the myriad "dragon-men" that ancient cultures speak of. The nagas from Southeast Asia, Cecrops the half man, half snake king of Athens, the winged and feathered serpents of Mesoamerica, all have a deity status amongst classical antiquity and up to Rennaissance period men (referring to the Aztec people and Mayan descendants in the 16th century). In Christian terms, all these "dragon-men" are collectively called "serpent seed" or demons, associated or spawned (lack of reproductive term) by Satan and Lilith(?). In all cultures these "dragon-men" or demons demanded blood sacrifices, and had humans enslaved to them. In terms of aliens from other planets, taking angelical terms, there are thrones, powers and dominions who dwell in the upper spheres who are hostile to mankind and while not demons per se, they plot, envy and have enmity towards mankind. The passage of the sons of God and daughters of men is always one that no one like to discuss, speaking of preachers and priests directly. The offspring of the angels and women are the Nephilim, one of the main causes of the Great Flood (which is shared by all Middle Eastern cultures even the Greeks), because the were perverse and killed humans without any remorse. All them perished in the Great Flood, and their spirits became demons. The angels that disobeyed and came to mortal women (pardon the pun) were chained in the underworld, waiting for the end of the world to be liberated to sow plagues upon men. Wow, what a divert from ancient Philistine weapons thread.........but it's very interesting.....and let's keep it civil without gettin too involved into personal religious stuff........
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 12:27:33 GMT
Hello Azuzokuzan, Ha, yes, I agree that this thread has drifted way off topic and I also agree with it being interesting nonetheless. And that is interesting what you said about the dragon men and gods. I have not read too much up on all that.
But I must ask you something friend, I am not sure what you mean when you say let's keep it civil or why you said it. If I did or said anything that came across as uncivil I definately apologize. If I did, I did not mean it so.
But back to the Phillistines and Israelites; I have always wondered if they had a very organized military, or just bands of warriors. I mean did they have huge armies in matching uniforms, armor and weapons, or just an armed mob? That is something I have always been curious about. Thanks for y'all's input. FB
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 16:48:48 GMT
Dont worry we have kept the conversation civil all the time, but on another subtopic people got out of control; yes indeed it is very interesting this thread. I believe that on the beginning, both Israelites and Philistines were warbands since they were migrating people. Later when they settled they began to organize better and built organized armies. I don't know how extensive was their use of cavalry, but most biblical depictions of battles exclude cavalry and instead use war chariots. My best guess is that they used mostly infantry formations.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 18:32:26 GMT
Hello Azuzokuzan, Yep, I agree with you 100% about the developement and perfection of Israelite Military organization over time. But as for the Hebrew having or not having much in the way of cavalry, somewhere I read that in King David's and Soloman's day, that they had a well trained, equiped, organized and armed military and that the Judeans were known as or for their horsemanship, or at least had, several thousand cavalryman. It was the Judeans that made up the bulk of mounted forces of King Soloman's armies. Or maybe it was Chariots I read about. I must look into this. My interest and curiostity is peaked. But I am no scholar on the issue, that is just what I have heard and read somewhere over the years. I wish there was a website somewhere with difinitive info and answers to all this. I will try to find some info.
I don't know why I am so absolutely fascinated with ancient Hebrew history, "Old Testement" stuff for I am of mainly Celtic/Nordic stock. Most of my ancesters came from Scotland, France, England and Germany, some of which I trace back to 1300s and one line to King Charlemagne. From what I was told, I am descended from him and one of his concubines. Ha! I always fantasized about what it would be like to be descended from a famous valient King. Well I did, but not from him and his wife. Naturally! From what I have been told I am the desendent of a b--tard of he and and one of his concubines.
But anyeay, at times in my life I have been so into Biblical history that I wondered if somewhere back along the lines I am Jewish and just don't know it. I thought perhaps that is the root of my interest, a blood and gene pool memory so to speak. Who knows. It has always been like a racial or gene pool memory or like a "calling". it was so strong at one time I thought of going over there. I remember when I got out of the U.S. Army Infantry in 1974 I called the Israeli consolent and asked if it were possible for me to join their army. The answer was yes but I would have to immigrate to Israel and give up my U.S. citizenship. I was not ready to do that so I forgot about it. I wonder what my life would have turned out like if I had've? FB
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 22:29:36 GMT
I dunno much of my bloodlines maybe one or two generations back.........roots in Venezuela, North Africa, Canary Islands, and Spain......I know that sometimes given numbers in biblical verses are symbolic or not literal to say the least, but during King David's reign, when Satan managed to slip another bit of corruption on his soul, and he did the census, there were close to 1.5 million men that were fit to fight. Taking the premise that all info of the Israelite kingdom of David was true and it extended from the mediterranean sea to the Euphrates river, it was an empire of significant strength. Would have contended with the other classical empires that are recorded outside the bible.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2007 22:54:01 GMT
also prolongued contact with the Philistines (wether in battle or more civil terms) may have introduced iron weapons into the Hebrew army. I think the bulk of the army used light or no armor, reserving it to the generals, chieftains and kings. and back into the earlier post, if 1.5 million men were fit to bear arms, it meant the Israeli population was at least 6 million taking that Hebrew families tended to be large with many sons and daughters.
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