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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 12:34:45 GMT
I already know where they come from, when fallen angels had flesh and gave it to the women of the Earth as it were . Define the early church? Many people refer to different periods as the early church. Define original sin while your at it, Orthodoxy doesn't really believe in it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 13:42:20 GMT
Njay, it's a little more controversial than that with the book of Enoch. The flood and judgement to come is made because of the nephilims corruption of mankind. They were set to watch the earth while God and the rest of the angels endulged in heaven, but are tempted by the women. War, weapons, ungodliness and sorcery is brought to man by the nephilims. They are the snake in paradise. So it breaks some of the principles of christianity, not to say the modern protestantic christianity where the personal relation between God and man is essential. And of course with the principle of a God that is all good. Why else would the nephilim know and teach mankind bad things if not taught by God? Well, that's really another debate that won't fit here. Early church is the church from 100 to 400 ad. By the fourth century the books of Bible was mostly agreed on, and the dogmas of christianity set. Original sin: All men are born as sinners because of Adam and Eves original sin. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2009 23:48:58 GMT
Hey guys, I love the subject too, but let's keep it strictly historical. Nice to see this thread ressurrected; the Philistines were pioneers in iron working, however it has been stated that at least first gen iron weapons/armor were inferior to the current bronze weaponry found during that period. That should explain Goliath's bronze armor and weapons. As noted, Goliath of Gat is an Anakim, one of the giant races that lived in Palestine at the time when the people of Israel came back from the desert. Then under divine decree, they were ordered to exterminate the giants, which from a non religious approach seems contradictory, if there was a whole army of Goliaths, it would have been quite a task for an upstart Israelite army, made of conscripts and with meager weapons and armor, mostly scavenged from the people they defeated earlier. Only if their numbers were few (the giants), then it would been feasable that they were utterly exterminated as they were claimed to be. That is given the fact that the Caananite giants and other people's had already established kingdoms (I think more of petty tribal kingships and "walled" cities nowhere like Niniveh, Babylon, or even pre-David Jerusalem) and something like standing armies. Still, some historians group the Israelites along the Sea People's who ravaged the Fertile Crescent at the end of the Bronze Age, and an Egyptian stele confirms it where amongst the captured Sea People's were circumsized prisoners (the only people in the area which practiced it were the Israelites).
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Post by alvin on Dec 4, 2009 0:10:42 GMT
This possibly doesn't relate to the Philistine giants, but fits into the story of giants in days gone by. Bernal Diaz del Castillo in his True History of the Discovery and Conquest of Mexico, writes in the mid 1500's of a discussion between the Spanish conquistadores and the natives of Tlaxcala circa 1519....
"They said that their ancestors had told them, that in times past there had lived among them men and women of giant size with huge bones, and because they were very bad people of evil manners that they had fought with them and killed them, and those of them who remained died off. So that we could see how huge and tall these people had been they brought us a leg bone of one of them which was very thick and the height of a man of ordinary stature, and it was the bone from the hip to the knee. I measured myself against it and it was as tall as I am although I am of fair size....."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 2:14:51 GMT
Hi guys, dropping in suddenly, but i have some nice info (I am Israeli, and as some of you probably know, we have bible classes as part of general school program) ok, first, for the story of David and Goliath- The original story is that David, being a short and physically small man, killed the giant Goliath with a single stone from a slingshot, which hit Goliath on the forhead,an unarmored region. He later used Goliath's sword to cut his own head as a trophy.
As for ancient hebrew weaponry...... For the most parts, relics and Archioligical finds in Israel point to the use of rectangular one handed shields, and a short sword (first bronze, then iron) similar to a gladius, even a bit shorter. However, the main weapon of combat was without a doubt the spear. Nothing fancy, just a short iron diamond shaped blade on a plain pole, like those you commonly see in cartoons as a generic "spear". The ancient Hebrew army relied heavily on archers, and for foot soldiers a contraption named "iron chariots" was used. Basically, it's a wooden frame on wheels, with plates of iron on the front, like a mobile iron wall, so troops can go into battlefields without being hit by enemy archers. As for armor- very light armor was used, leather mostly.
My little donation to the thread, hope this was some of the info you were searching.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2009 3:51:23 GMT
Hey guys, I love the subject too, but let's keep it strictly historical. Nice to see this thread ressurrected; the Philistines were pioneers in iron working, however it has been stated that at least first gen iron weapons/armor were inferior to the current bronze weaponry found during that period. That should explain Goliath's bronze armor and weapons. As noted, Goliath of Gat is an Anakim, one of the giant races that lived in Palestine at the time when the people of Israel came back from the desert. Then under divine decree, they were ordered to exterminate the giants, which from a non religious approach seems contradictory, if there was a whole army of Goliaths, it would have been quite a task for an upstart Israelite army, made of conscripts and with meager weapons and armor, mostly scavenged from the people they defeated earlier. Only if their numbers were few (the giants), then it would been feasable that they were utterly exterminated as they were claimed to be. That is given the fact that the Caananite giants and other people's had already established kingdoms (I think more of petty tribal kingships and "walled" cities nowhere like Niniveh, Babylon, or even pre-David Jerusalem) and something like standing armies. Still, some historians group the Israelites along the Sea People's who ravaged the Fertile Crescent at the end of the Bronze Age, and an Egyptian stele confirms it where amongst the captured Sea People's were circumsized prisoners (the only people in the area which practiced it were the Israelites). The israelites were not the only circumsized. It was also common among egyptian and other semitic people. The tradition of circumcision probably started in Egypt. So it does not mean there were israelites among the sea people. After the greek dominance in the mediterranean area, especially after Alexander the great, the tradition died out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 1:24:29 GMT
I stand corrected over the circumsized only Israelites. However, it is recorded that the Hebrew tribe of Dan had very close ties with the Philistines and even joined them in military raids, although later both held a great hatred for each other. The Danites, in non biblical lore come from the Denyen, and the Philistines from the Peleset, both being part of the Sea Peoples.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 1:53:34 GMT
Well to be fair the Israelites are not even the first recorded people to be circumsized. There is a story in the bible where some men from a neighbouring tribe raped one of the Israelite women and then he felt bad about it so he went and asked her if he could marry her and she went to her brothers and they hatched a plan. She told the rapist that she would only marry him if he and all the men of his tribe were circumsized. They agreed, her brothers went down and circumsized everyone and then killed them all for the insult done to their sister. To my knowledge that is the first recorded story of circumcision, unless I am ahead of myself and the Israelites did it first?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 6:57:59 GMT
The story you mention is the rape of Dinah, the daughter of Jacob. According to the Bible the Israelites were already practicing circumcision by that time, hence the story they told the guy who raped their sister was along the lines of "sorry, but our laws only let us do business or marry with people who are circumcised like us" to get them to do it, then the brothers went in a couple days later and killed all the men in the town who were too busy limping around to fight very well.
The moral of the story is don't touch someone's sister.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 8:19:16 GMT
Abram was circumcised, along with his whole House. That's Jacob's grandfather, so the practice had been in place for three generations (which back then could've been 100 or 200 years. Life span was crazy then.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2009 9:32:01 GMT
When Abraham lived, (1800 BC?), the egyptians had done circumzition for at least 1000 years. First it was done by priests and royal to ensure their purity and their submission to the gods. From the egyptians it spread to the semitic people. The egyptians also circumsized slaves.
Egypt had their own god for circumzition, and a circumsiced male organ was a sign of fertility.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 0:43:56 GMT
When Abraham lived, (1800 BC?) Abraham is thought by secular scholars to have lived from circa 2000-1825 BC. Frankly, I didn't mention who was the first peoples or who we can put dated documented evidence to the earliest. I only mentioned the house of Abram/Abraham to show that Jacob was not the first of the Hebrew race to practice it. edit: I'm sorry, Ichiban. I think I was impolite with my original response. I'm trying to stay polite and hold my tongue throughout this topic, but the tone with which you discuss Biblical figures and events has a tendency to incite me to anger. (The way I read your posts sounds as if you're intentionally bringing up items that speak contrary to the Bible or the Tanakh . Perhaps I read too much into it.) Since I don't want any of this to devolve into an issue over my faith or which writings I hold as canonical, I need to bow out of this discussion. Hopefully y'all can respect that and I'll see y'all on the other topics.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 3:55:32 GMT
It is interesting to note that the Hittites were the one who used Iron the most, there were some others who used it, but they were few, after the fall of the Hittite Empier, the use of Iron spred like wild fire every where......just my little add on...SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 5:41:04 GMT
in our traditions, we are taught that god taught the secrets of iron to dav id. we have stories of giant people as well. nothing magical about them, just that they were bigger framed than us.i cant see why not. and we have stories of 2 angles that were hung in a cave somewere in iraq (possibly karbala) as punishment for falling for women, and giving out the secrets of sorcery. i read the other day that the ancient Egyptians practiced circumcision on both men AND women. is it possible that the philsitines were just a group of simple bedoins?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 8:48:25 GMT
When Abraham lived, (1800 BC?) Abraham is thought by secular scholars to have lived from circa 2000-1825 BC. Frankly, I didn't mention who was the first peoples or who we can put dated documented evidence to the earliest. I only mentioned the house of Abram/Abraham to show that Jacob was not the first of the Hebrew race to practice it. edit: I'm sorry, Ichiban. I think I was impolite with my original response. I'm trying to stay polite and hold my tongue throughout this topic, but the tone with which you discuss Biblical figures and events has a tendency to incite me to anger. (The way I read your posts sounds as if you're intentionally bringing up items that speak contrary to the Bible or the Tanakh . Perhaps I read too much into it.) Since I don't want any of this to devolve into an issue over my faith or which writings I hold as canonical, I need to bow out of this discussion. Hopefully y'all can respect that and I'll see y'all on the other topics. I don't think you are impolite, but perhaps I am? I don't know. At least there is no need to apologize at all. One of the problems of discussing biblical history is that we have two differents starting points. For me biblical history also includes regional history, archaelogy, religious history and applied science. I have been interested in this for about 25 years, but I learn something new all the time. I try to view it in a larger context than what the Bible can offer, and that often leads me to conclude otherwise than you would. I can understand that might be provoking. But after all this should not be a religious discussion, but based on what information is available.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2009 17:05:25 GMT
[quote author=ichiban board=ancientswords thread=3464 post=227340 time=1260089305[/quote]I don't think you are impolite, but perhaps I am?[/quote]My original post was very rude. That's why I edited it. To use a popular cliché, "It wasn't very Christian of me." In my opinion, an apology was necessary.I too take these items in to account, but you are right. It's two different starting points. I define my world by the contents of Scripture, not the other way around. As CS Lewis said, "I believe in the Gospel as I believe in the Sun; not because I can see it, but by it I can see everything else."
Like I said, I have no problem with discussing scholarly research on the subject. I also have no problem discussing the events as Scripture relates them. I'll keep myself in check better and perhaps this discussion can derail less.
We haven't even spoken much of chariot-based combat or the fact that swords were rare and most fought with spear or javelin.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2009 4:04:29 GMT
Hey look, intelligent internet discussion and courtesy. One of the reasons I love SBG. But aside from that, just to throw in my $0.02, what kind of swords would the Philistines and Israelites used? From each time, that is Joshua, Judges, under the Kings, etc. I don't want to get into religious debates as I am something of a more secular thinker, but I would like to know about the actual weapons of the areas. Primarily because the figure of Joshua has always been one of my favourites (didn't say I was UN-religious )
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