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Post by oolong dao on Jan 23, 2013 5:40:28 GMT
The Kamekazi that stopped the mongols.
also how does hema train in the US?
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 23, 2013 5:53:39 GMT
Agree to disagree.
I haven't trained with a HEMA-labled group, but Schola Saint George uses the same base material, the writings of Fiori dei Liberi. Best group I've had the pleasure to work with.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Jan 23, 2013 5:56:45 GMT
You need to start a new thread in the Sword Training sub forum. viewforum.php?f=21I don't know why you care? All you did so far was bad mouth HEMA.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 23, 2013 18:35:25 GMT
well if HEMA teaches how to duel someone with a sword (similar to modern american knife fighting)they have a rats chance in a china against a surprise attack with a machet.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 23, 2013 18:45:11 GMT
Firstly, that's rather offensive (the rat thing)...
Secondly, who has a fair chance against a *surprise* attack? I could sneak up on a U.S. Marine with a half-brick in a sock and bean them on the back of the head, does that mean that people have no chance against a surprise attack with a half-brick in a sock?
What training does is teach people how to deal with specific situations. After people have gone through that training, they can deal more effectively with *similar* situations than non-trained people could. Is a machete a sword? No. But it's similar.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 23, 2013 19:15:18 GMT
first of were talking survival situations so if a HEMA practitioner isn't prepared for a fight he doesn't start or have complete control of how useful is the training the classes provide. the comment i find offensive is that a longsword and HEMA puts one leaps and bounds ahead the the guy whose only training is chopping through trees with a machet.
i disagree im betting most of the things that make a sword to you didn't exist until medival times.
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Post by Rifleman Lizard on Jan 23, 2013 19:32:10 GMT
A sword is a machete in that a sharpened twig is an arrow. They just aren't. Simple as that. A sword has an actual profile, beyond flat sheet metal like a machete. Hitting a tree with a machete is not training, it's using a tool (incorrectly). Machetes are designed to cut brush and light foliage.
Truthfully, you're embarrassing yourself. Elheru is a very knowledgable guy, a lot of SBG members are, so you should probably tone down the difficulty and the "I bet" attitude.
Seriously just chill out. If you wanna wave your machete at trees, talk semprini about HEMA, fine but don't expect not to get called out for the BS your spewing.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 23, 2013 19:40:23 GMT
Hmm. Interesting. So you're saying a guy that chops trees with a machete, something which takes about enough skill to pick a spot and hit it many times and then step out of the way, is going to be better equipped for a fight than a guy who has gone through several classes, learning various postures, steps, techniques, and applications thereof, and then fighting matches (which aren't set drills, they're generally random)? Someone who has trained to *fight* will be better prepared to actually fight than someone who hasn't trained to fight, surprise or not. Simple fact.
And a sword is a long piece of steel, appropriately shaped, with bits stuck on here and there. In that form, it's existed since the Bronze Age. People have been using swords and sword-like blade weapons far longer than machetes, which are a fairly modern tool derived from brush-cutting implements of various cultures; the sword-like form is a coincidence of design.
Oh, and sword-fighting is *not* 'similar to modern american knife fighting'. Knives are a much closer-in weapon; swords give you reach and the ability to control the opponent's weapon with your own. Even fighting with a machete is generally similar to medieval dussack or messer techniques, as they're the same class of weapon (cutting blades of short length). Anybody who's trained in dussack or messer could easily counter a skilled machete wielder-- that is, someone who's actually practiced fighting with it, rather than chopping at a tree or two.
So, please do explain exactly how a guy with a machete has an edge over a WMA practitioner with a sword. And do it without "surprise, duh".
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Jan 23, 2013 19:54:22 GMT
I was trying to feel you out and see if you were just young and naive, just plain stupid, or a troll. But with post like these I would say a troll....plus it doesn't help you when you already saying you were a troll on another forum. viewtopic.php?f=47&t=14516&start=10SBGers, don't feed this troll anymore!
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 23, 2013 20:35:32 GMT
in a duel machete would lose but in a situation where i want the supplies he's carrying im not going to give him a chance to defend himself. add this to it's wood cutting ability and the makes a better choice in a survival situation. But since everyone seems to think it's not a sword those points don't matter.
from that point i can think of no sword whose usefulness is equal to or greater than the weight it adds compared to a machet or axe so i leave it to you.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 23, 2013 20:52:08 GMT
So basically you're saying you're fine with robbing people for their supplies and fighting dirty? Why didn't you just say so in the first place. I'm sure that you can find classes somewhere for that kind of thing. Somalia, maybe.
No, a sword isn't as *useful* as a machete in practical everyday situations. You have that part correct, at least. Just don't try to say a person with a sword couldn't beat a person with a machete or that HEMA/WMA training doesn't matter/is useless.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 23, 2013 22:32:27 GMT
If you think survival is a orderly honour bound duel in which both sides are equal id like to remind you of the european colonialization of africa and the americas.
with that said is there any sword useful at things that dont just involve killing.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jan 23, 2013 22:50:57 GMT
Said colonization was never necessary for the European countries to survive. Fail.
And swords? Sure. Zombie Tools type stuff for the most part. Miller Brothers. Hanwei tac-wak. Busse. Windlass Cobra Steel line. Heck, there are a few Windlass weapons which could probably fly as multi-purpose weapons, such as the D-guard bowie and the Charay, a bunch of their bowies as well (not swords, granted, but some of them are pretty darn big). I'm sure there are plenty out there. And even if they're not optimized for the task, most swords will do some light chopping (branches, etc); if you're in a situation where you need to chop down a tree with a sword and you don't have any other tools, you have a problem though.
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 24, 2013 4:30:33 GMT
You can now look forward to being introduced to my friends Five Point Five Six and Twenty Nine More in the Mag in the PAW, as will all raiders. Please keep your completely incorrect opinions and talk of illegal activities to yourself.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 24, 2013 4:48:48 GMT
its not illegal if there is no law. dont confuse me with the wannabe knights if you remember my original arguement was in favor of guns above melee.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 24, 2013 4:51:42 GMT
it was necessary for the colonials they sent, dumbass.
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 24, 2013 4:57:51 GMT
But there is law now, chill the semprini out. Yes, your 12 is bigger, but for reasons that suit me I feel a modern fighting carbine is a better choice. I can operate to longer ranges (read as: actually has range), more accurately, and quicker than any shotgun. I have no desire to argue this case further, it is apparent you are a troll and know very little.
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Post by oolong dao on Jan 24, 2013 5:24:52 GMT
I think i can stop now too. From what i seem to gather HEMA does suffer from the main ill of american knife fighting, something i once read that was described as fantasy traing for fantasy situations (no this is not a insult). what students say about it does agree with some of the youtube videos ive been watching today. i think a good portion dont study any other martial arts like boxing and sparring seems to happen with foam weapons and pads, similar to escrima with a few defferences. the only actual problem i have with it is that it seems that your not learning the actual techniques (unless theyre written) and unlike escrima it's a evolutionary dead end unless someone makes bullet proof full plate.
Yes i trolled you all because when i ask for a description nicely it didn't get nearly as many responses as HEMA people will eat lead slugs.
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Post by KentsOkay on Jan 24, 2013 5:38:27 GMT
On topic, how would YOU care for your sword in the PAW?
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Sébastien
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,967
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Post by Sébastien on Jan 24, 2013 6:18:25 GMT
Ooooookay, I am locking this thread down until me and my mates decide if we let it die or reopen it later.
Edit : Oolong Dao, check your in-box, you got mail.
Since this thread has a cool subject and has been made mostly of adequate discussions, I will reopen it in 24 hours. 'Til then, have a great day.
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